So.....how do I go about getting a more diverse team?

[DGuller]

Why didn't your company publish as part of the job description the salary that the position would offer? If she had known from the beginning she wouldn't have even applied, saving everyone plenty of time. I never knew why the onus is always put on the potential employee to offer the initial number and then barter from that starting point.

That's almost never done, even though it would obviously be helpful in avoiding the waste of everyone's time.  I guess the companies perceive it to give up too much negotiating advantage.

I think there is a lot to be said about outlawing salary negotiation itself.  Just have a formula for job grade and maybe some minor objective modifiers, and have this formula be public.  If someone is exceptional, they deserve an exceptional job grade, and don't tie the job grade to management responsibilities so tightly as most companies do.  An individual who's not a professional negotiator will rarely come off well when up against a company that does this for a living, and there is evidence that some groups of people do worse than others at this game.  Anything that contributes to salaries being a negotiation, or to lack of transparency about compensation, serves to benefit the company over the individual.

[The Brain]

I think there is a lot to be said about outlawing salary negotiation itself.  Just have a formula for job grade and maybe some minor objective modifiers, and have this formula be public.  If someone is exceptional, they deserve an exceptional job grade, and don't tie the job grade to management responsibilities so tightly as most companies do.  An individual who's not a professional negotiator will rarely come off well when up against a company that does this for a living, and there is evidence that some groups of people do worse than others at this game.  Anything that contributes to salaries being a negotiation, or to lack of transparency about compensation, serves to benefit the company over the individual.

FWIW I think it would be a horrible idea, for many reasons.

[Sheilbh]

That's almost never done, even though it would obviously be helpful in avoiding the waste of everyone's time.  I guess the companies perceive it to give up too much negotiating advantage.

I think there is a lot to be said about outlawing salary negotiation itself.  Just have a formula for job grade and maybe some minor objective modifiers, and have this formula be public.  If someone is exceptional, they deserve an exceptional job grade, and don't tie the job grade to management responsibilities so tightly as most companies do.  An individual who's not a professional negotiator will rarely come off well when up against a company that does this for a living, and there is evidence that some groups of people do worse than others at this game.  Anything that contributes to salaries being a negotiation, or to lack of transparency about compensation, serves to benefit the company over the individual.

That's the way a lot of public sector jobs work. Those are the ones where you're most likely to see salary figures in the job advert too. It's very rare in the private sector here but it does happen.

[DGuller]

I think there is a lot to be said about outlawing salary negotiation itself.  Just have a formula for job grade and maybe some minor objective modifiers, and have this formula be public.  If someone is exceptional, they deserve an exceptional job grade, and don't tie the job grade to management responsibilities so tightly as most companies do.  An individual who's not a professional negotiator will rarely come off well when up against a company that does this for a living, and there is evidence that some groups of people do worse than others at this game.  Anything that contributes to salaries being a negotiation, or to lack of transparency about compensation, serves to benefit the company over the individual.

FWIW I think it would be a horrible idea, for many reasons.

Such as?

[Iormlund]

Ok, if it was not a job posting and a referal instead then I can see it how it proceeded that way, but maybe the subject should have been touched upon earlier in the process then.

When I interviewed for my current role, salary was the first topic of the first interview.

It's the only time that has happened and I'm guessing it was because I was then working in Germany, and they suspected I'd ask for too much. In the end I already knew how much they were allowed to pay, and that there were almost no qualified candidates, so going first worked well for me. Despite no actual experience I got higher salary than most of my peers.

[The Brain]

I think there is a lot to be said about outlawing salary negotiation itself.  Just have a formula for job grade and maybe some minor objective modifiers, and have this formula be public.  If someone is exceptional, they deserve an exceptional job grade, and don't tie the job grade to management responsibilities so tightly as most companies do.  An individual who's not a professional negotiator will rarely come off well when up against a company that does this for a living, and there is evidence that some groups of people do worse than others at this game.  Anything that contributes to salaries being a negotiation, or to lack of transparency about compensation, serves to benefit the company over the individual.

FWIW I think it would be a horrible idea, for many reasons.

Such as?

Taking away people's right to negotiate what is often their biggest business deal strikes me as fundamentally very unsound, and a huge invasion of the private sphere. It also seems horribly ill-suited to the reality that small and medium organizations operate in. And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations I don't see a problem that needs solving, and least of all solving by extremely heavy-handed measures.

[chipwich]

And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations

There's a lot of injustice and effective societies reward skills in addition to negotiating.

[The Brain]

And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations

There's a lot of injustice and effective societies reward skills in addition to negotiating.

I don't follow. What are you talking about?

[DGuller]

Taking away people's right to negotiate what is often their biggest business deal strikes me as fundamentally very unsound, and a huge invasion of the private sphere.

Sometimes you're better off not having a right.  When you have a right to do something, you can also be coerced to do it.  If you don't have a right to accept a salary much below what your position warrants, you won't be coerced to do it.  The areas where negotiating power is very unequal are classical prisoner dilemma cases where less rights can amount to more freedom.

It also seems horribly ill-suited to the reality that small and medium organizations operate in. And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations I don't see a problem that needs solving, and least of all solving by extremely heavy-handed measures.

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

[The Brain]

Taking away people's right to negotiate what is often their biggest business deal strikes me as fundamentally very unsound, and a huge invasion of the private sphere.

Sometimes you're better off not having a right.  When you have a right to do something, you can also be coerced to do it.  If you don't have a right to accept a salary much below what your position warrants, you won't be coerced to do it.  The areas where negotiating power is very unequal are classical prisoner dilemma cases where less rights can amount to more freedom.

It also seems horribly ill-suited to the reality that small and medium organizations operate in. And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations I don't see a problem that needs solving, and least of all solving by extremely heavy-handed measures.

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

Our views on these matters are very different and we will never agree.

[grumbler]

Taking away people's right to negotiate what is often their biggest business deal strikes me as fundamentally very unsound, and a huge invasion of the private sphere.

Sometimes you're better off not having a right.  When you have a right to do something, you can also be coerced to do it.  If you don't have a right to accept a salary much below what your position warrants, you won't be coerced to do it.  The areas where negotiating power is very unequal are classical prisoner dilemma cases where less rights can amount to more freedom.

It also seems horribly ill-suited to the reality that small and medium organizations operate in. And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations I don't see a problem that needs solving, and least of all solving by extremely heavy-handed measures.

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

I'm with you.  Brain's idea would break down very quickly, as existing employees learn that they are going to be much better compensated if they are as difficult in performance reviews as they can be.    While keeping the salary system opaque may look to be to the company's benefit, it isn't, if it drives away people who feel that their are being treated unfairly because other employees who contribute less get paid more, just for being willing to be assholes.

Transparency works best except when it would result in the managers having to explain stupid compensation decisions.

[The Brain]

Taking away people's right to negotiate what is often their biggest business deal strikes me as fundamentally very unsound, and a huge invasion of the private sphere.

Sometimes you're better off not having a right.  When you have a right to do something, you can also be coerced to do it.  If you don't have a right to accept a salary much below what your position warrants, you won't be coerced to do it.  The areas where negotiating power is very unequal are classical prisoner dilemma cases where less rights can amount to more freedom.

It also seems horribly ill-suited to the reality that small and medium organizations operate in. And since there is no injustice in people who are better at negotiating getting better results in negotiations I don't see a problem that needs solving, and least of all solving by extremely heavy-handed measures.

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

I'm with you.  Brain's idea would break down very quickly, as existing employees learn that they are going to be much better compensated if they are as difficult in performance reviews as they can be.    While keeping the salary system opaque may look to be to the company's benefit, it isn't, if it drives away people who feel that their are being treated unfairly because other employees who contribute less get paid more, just for being willing to be assholes.

Transparency works best except when it would result in the managers having to explain stupid compensation decisions.

I don't follow. My idea (having salaray negotiations legal), which is in effect in many countries, has broken down very quickly?

[alfred russel]

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

I don't understand how you can be against negotiation in practical terms.

You are the best cook in town. The restaurant you work for is paying you $35k. The other restaurant in town realizes how awesome you are, and offers $45k. So you decide to take that job and you give your employer notice and tell him why. However, the restaurant you are at is willing to offer you $50k to stay. Are they allowed to give you that raise? If so, isn't that negotiation (I'm walking if you don't pay me more)?

If not, are they allowed to make you an offer of $50k after you quit? What sense does that make?

[DGuller]

I don't think it's right for a programmer who's a better negotiator to be paid more.  Their job is programming, not negotiating.  Negotiation is often a wasteful zero-sum activity that takes up time and goodwill, at the end one person's win is another person's loss.

I don't understand how you can be against negotiation in practical terms.

You are the best cook in town. The restaurant you work for is paying you $35k. The other restaurant in town realizes how awesome you are, and offers $45k. So you decide to take that job and you give your employer notice and tell him why. However, the restaurant you are at is willing to offer you $50k to stay. Are they allowed to give you that raise? If so, isn't that negotiation (I'm walking if you don't pay me more)?

If not, are they allowed to make you an offer of $50k after you quit? What sense does that make?

The awesome cook should be in a different job grade.  Maybe he should be Senior Cook or Principal Cook, and be compensated according to that job grade.  Yes, I realize that there is still some room for negotiation over what your job grade is, but that's far less opaque than private salary negotiations.

[The Brain]

Seems to me that spending time and energy on trying to artificially approximate something that you arrive at naturally and quickly with negotiations would be incredibly wasteful, especially for small and medium organizations.