Pickett's Charge

[alfred russel]

I was reading some stuff online about Pickett's Charge, and I thought this forum is always good for some additional info on the topic. So much is written about the details of the deployment of the confederate side, but the union side seems a bit harder to figure out. A few questions:

-The general theme seems to be that the Union had 7 Corps and 90k men at the battle, while the Confederates had 3 Corps and 70k men. I've seen estimates that the Union had between 6k and 10k to repulse Pickett's Charge. The question I have: if they only had 6-10k, where were the other ~80k men? I realize some were casualties or captured, and there were a couple Corps on Cemetery Hill, but were all the other Corps in reserve (besides II Corps on the ridge)?
-I've seen estimates that the Confederates had 120-150 artillery pieces involved in the pre attack bombardment, but Henry Hunt estimated only 75 Union cannon were in position to respond. The Union had over 300 artillery pieces in the area...considering I'd think that almost all the artillery in the line should be able to respond, where were the rest?
-Exactly how did the Confederates expect to disable the Union artillery? Kill the artillerymen? It doesn't seem likely that you would destroy the actual cannon from a mile away--how would you even do that?

[Valmy]

Well estimated Union casualties for the first two days of the battle run about 19,000 for the first two days, so they probably only had somewhere between 65K and 75K available for battle. Then you have the V and VI corps covering the southern flank with the III Corps all blown to shit. The XII and XI Corps were covering the northern flank. So yeah I guess just the II Corps and what was left of the I Corps were holding the middle of the line, but it is not like if Pickett and Pettigrew and Trimble had made progress the Union didn't have plenty of reserves to bring up. I think the only reason more troops were not involved was just because they were not needed.

I think the plan was to drive some of the guns off the ridge just long enough for the infantry to advance right? They just wanted to quiet them for a short time. The infantry was right behind the guns ready to advance as soon as the right moment arrived.

[Admiral Yi]

-Exactly how did the Confederates expect to disable the Union artillery? Kill the artillerymen? It doesn't seem likely that you would destroy the actual cannon from a mile away--how would you even do that?

By hitting the cannon with a big metal ball.  Unfortunately I can't find the max range for a Napoleon 12 pounder, which was the standard artillery piece of the Civil War, but I imagine they didn't choose to set up their batteries out of range of the Union line.

[grumbler]

Guns of the US Civil war were mostly gun-howitzers like the 12# Napoleon, firing shell in counter-battery fire against entrenched enemies.  They'd attempt to have the shell explode above the opposing gun battery and kill or wound the crew.  In the open, they might use solid shot to try to knock the enemy guns to pieces, as the timing on shells was imprecise.

The Union had reinforced their flanks by the third day, as Meade saw the real danger as being Confederate flanking attacks.  An attack straight up the center against the entrenched Union troops was not considered likely, as it would result in casualties the Confederates could not afford to take.  Indeed, Lee probably knew the attack was a mistake when he ordered it, but he felt he had no other option if he was to end the war quickly.

[alfred russel]

Lee probably knew the attack was a mistake when he ordered it, but he felt he had no other option if he was to end the war quickly.

The Confederates were getting steamrolled. At this point in the war, it was arguable they never had even won a meaningful battle outside of Virginia. Lee was looking at a situation where he was at his own 10 with a minute to go, facing a fourth and 20, down by 7, and he chose to throw the ball to a guy in triple coverage downfield. Probably throwing the ball to a guy in triple coverage was the wrong choice, but punting or dumping the ball off wasn't going to work either.

That is my take on it at least.

[FunkMonk]

General Lee was the Tony Romo of the Confederacy. Got it.

[alfred russel]

General Lee was the Tony Romo of the Confederacy. Got it.

[Razgovory]

The Gettysburg battlefield is really big.  Pickett's charge only took place in small portion of the battlefield.  All the rest of the soldiers were spread out across a line that extended a few miles. You can only pack so many soldiers into a small space.

[alfred russel]

The Gettysburg battlefield is really big.  Pickett's charge only took place in small portion of the battlefield.  All the rest of the soldiers were spread out across a line that extended a few miles. You can only pack so many soldiers into a small space.

But...it wasn't...I'm using google maps for this...if you look at the union line, Culps Hill to Cemetery Hill is a 0.6 mile walk, Cemetery Hill to Little Round top is 2.6 miles. If that is the line, the line is only 3.2 miles--less as the crow flies.

The angle is 1.0 miles from cemetery hill. That means that every soldier on the line above would be within a couple miles of the point of ultimate attack.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm surprised Culp's and Cemetery are that far apart.  They felt right on top of each other when I toured.

[Razgovory]

The Gettysburg battlefield is really big.  Pickett's charge only took place in small portion of the battlefield.  All the rest of the soldiers were spread out across a line that extended a few miles. You can only pack so many soldiers into a small space.

But...it wasn't...I'm using google maps for this...if you look at the union line, Culps Hill to Cemetery Hill is a 0.6 mile walk, Cemetery Hill to Little Round top is 2.6 miles. If that is the line, the line is only 3.2 miles--less as the crow flies.

The angle is 1.0 miles from cemetery hill. That means that every soldier on the line above would be within a couple miles of the point of ultimate attack.

True, but they need to hold the positions in front of them.  So long as the enemy is there, you need to be there as well or he will chase you down. I'm not sure what you asking here.  What is it you think the soldiers should be doing?

[alfred russel]

True, but they need to hold the positions in front of them.  So long as the enemy is there, you need to be there as well or he will chase you down. I'm not sure what you asking here.  What is it you think the soldiers should be doing?

Soldiering!

I think Valmy had a good answer - initially I was surprised that the estimates of the #s of union troops opposing pickett's charge was so low. I'm not entirely sure what counts you in the # opposing the charge, but on a line of maybe less than 4 miles I would have expected more in the center (again I'm not sure what gets you counted, but I would think about a 1.5 mile stretch along the line would be included and available reserves brought up -- I'd have thought it would be more than 10k). A 1.5 mile stretch means you would be included if you were ~0.75 miles from the angle, which probably gave an opportunity to fire your gun--and obviously there were flanking movements by troops leaving the line.

I'm not totally sure why there were only 75 union cannon engaged, though I know there are estimates that more did engage and I guess it makes some sense--the guns on the northern flank to defend Cemetery and Culp's Hill were too far to engage, and only a handful of guns could get up Little Round Top.

[Berkut]

Pickets division was not attacking alone, they were supported by IIRC Pettigrew and...someone else. Kemp? So it wasn't just Pickett attacking, he just had the center and his division had not fought in the first two days of battle, so was fresh.

The battle lines are basically linear. You don't know where you will be attacked, so your line is spread out along the length of the battle line. Yes, you might have lots more troops in nominal range of the attack, but

1. Are you sure this is the main attack, and not a feint to try to get you to pull troops from where the main attack will come?
2. Moving men out of line of battle, back, then marching them to another spot is doable, but not easy, especially when under artillery attack. Part of the purpose of that barrage is to (attempt at least) to isolate the target section of the battlefield. Artillery is MUCH more dangerous against moving soldiers than those in line.
3. The adjacent brigades and divisions are hopefully supporting the main attack, meaning that while they may not be looking to close and break the enemy in front of them, they are trying to move up and engage so as (again) to isolate the actual target for the decisive attack. Pickets division had three fresh brigades, but there were about a dozen actually involved in the attack.

This is why having reserves BEHIND the line is so critical, since they will be the ones available to close a off a breakthrough, since they can move into the line without needing to move laterally along it.

This ability to coordinate formations so they can support one another is kind of the crux of civil war battles, and is the reason why the South at this time used very large corps, while the Union used smaller, more homogenous ones. Lee was more confident in his corps commanders being exceptional leaders capable of manuevering much larger groups of men, while the Northern army was more designed to have similar sized Corps, and sized so that they could theoretically be commanded by anyone basically competent, rather than Lee's hand picked Corps commanders.

But in any case, "Picketts Charge" sounds a lot better than "Longstreets Assault using Pickets division along with supporting elements from some other units, some of which never really got into the fight at all".

The reasons for cannons engaged is essentially the same - the Union doesn't know where the attack is coming, so while they did concentrate a lot of their cannon in the center, they could not concentrate it all, while Lee was confident he was not going to be attacked, and hence was more willing to just strip his artillery to concentrate it at the point of attack. There is also a spacing issue - when attacking, you can spread it out in line, while aiming it into a point. When defending, you have to keep you artillery lined up alongside your infantry (mostly). But once it was clear what was happening, the Union artillery was definintely concentrated, and was used to devastating effect.

[Valmy]

It was called Pickett's Charge because the Virginia media decided to pin the failure of the whole thing on the cowardice and ineptitude of the North Carolinians of Pettigrew's division for not helping their brave Virginians when they reached the stone wall. So it was Pickett's Charge, old Virginia going in to win it for the Confederacy, but those sucky North Carolinians screwed it all up. I mean what else were they going to do? Blame General Lee? So the Virginia newspapers at the time gave it that name and it has stuck for whatever reason.

So when you go to Gettysburg you can note the monuments North Carolina put up there for Pettigrew's division to try to counter this narrative.

[Valmy]

General Lee was the Tony Romo of the Confederacy. Got it.

Man that is an amazingly apt analogy