The Atlantic Op Ed: Pandemic reveals US as failed state

[viper37]

I think "Failed State" is embellishing. I haven't read the article yet, but I think Americans should be horrified at what has happened. It's a debacle. a defeat and now apparently we've decided that we are just going to sort of carry on and accept large numbers of people dying as sort of not too big of a deal? I like to describe the US as slipping and sliding into sort of a Banana Republic, or to British people of my age slipping into a near future dystopia like a late 70's British TV drama. *


* 70's Quatermass maybe.

yeah, but it's Obama's fault.  Poor President Trump, the medias are so hard on him...

[viper37]

A "failing state" rather than a "failed state".

I was going to say this.

And also, Trump is absolutely the symptom and not the cause. Getting rid of him is necessary, but insufficient for recovery.

Send some of the Senior Republicans and most of their apprentices on a piligrimage to west Africa, to spread the foundations of a new country.
Arrange for their ships to suffer a fatal accident en route.Instigate a separation crisis followed by a civil war that further decimate their ranks.Make sure to groom their most potential presidential prospect to switch over to your side at a convenient moment.When they realize it's too late, have their former friend slaughter all who survived.

[viper37]

A "failing state" rather than a "failed state".

This.  The metaphor I would use is the gated community. Americans are still willing to contribute to common goals and public goods but only if they see the benefit going to themselves and people they think of to be like themselves.  Not the "wrong people".  The problem of course is that nations can't really work that way and remain nations.  The ugliest part of Trump's nationalism, like similar nationalism before it, is not just the xenophobia against the outside world (which is bad) but the redefinition of categories of Americans as Others or lesser Americans.

I don't see nationalism in the US.  What I see is a rise in patriotism since the Iraq war of 2003.  Freedom fries&all that...  What you cal "the ugliest part of Trump's nationalism" isn't exactly new in the US, it's been there for a while, never really left the country.  The only thing that changed is people holding these views are no longer publicly shamed in holding them.

[Admiral Yi]

TBH, we all dismissed China's casualties as that of a 3rd world country.  How would you compare the US casualties to China's?

Pretty shitty.  But that's not on the point of what a failed state.  It has a fairly specific meaning.

[viper37]

War lords don't shake you down when you drive through Nebraska.

You don't need War lords for that, you have toll roads

[Ancient Demon]

No, the US isn't a failed state. It just seems that way due to the ongoing media hysteria about Donald Trump. A similar pandemic outcome under Hillary Clinton wouldn't be seen as that bad by most people here.

[Grey Fox]

The US federal government is getting there fast enough.

[Zoupa]

No, the US isn't a failed state. It just seems that way due to the ongoing media hysteria about Donald Trump. A similar pandemic outcome under Hillary Clinton wouldn't be seen as that bad by most people here.

That's kind of the point. A Clinton administration would not have had a similar pandemic outcome.

[Ancient Demon]

That's kind of the point. A Clinton administration would not have had a similar pandemic outcome.

You don't know that at all, none of us do.

[Admiral Yi]

I think if you take out all the mad tweeting and name calling the response would have been more or less the same.

[Zoupa]

Jesus Fucking Christ Yi.

[fromtia]

I think if you take out all the mad tweeting and name calling the response would have been more or less the same.

you are ascribing a level of operational competence to trump and his team that makes it hard to take you seriously.

[Razgovory]

TBH, we all dismissed China's casualties as that of a 3rd world country.  How would you compare the US casualties to China's?

Pretty shitty.  But that's not on the point of what a failed state.  It has a fairly specific meaning.

How do you define it?  I define it as a state that can't enforce its laws over the territory it claims to own.  It's not a perfect definition as some states make absurd territorial claims, but it seems like a good minimalist definition.

[Admiral Yi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_state

The Fund for Peace characterizes a failed state as having the following characteristics:

• Loss of control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein
• Erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions
• Inability to provide public services
• Inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community

Common characteristics of a failing state include a central government so weak or ineffective that it has an inability to raise taxes or other support, and has little practical control over much of its territory and hence there is a non-provision of public services. When this happens, widespread corruption and criminality, the intervention of state and non-state actors, the appearance of refugees and the involuntary movement of populations, sharp economic decline, and foreign military intervention can occur.

This works for me.

[crazy canuck]

I think if you take out all the mad tweeting and name calling the response would have been more or less the same.

I can't believe your country is so profoundly inept.