Freedom of Expression in Academia and Employment - formerly the Trans Issues.

[Barrister]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

Yeah the right-wing bogeyman is a large bearded "trans woman" insisting to use a female locker room, but I don't know how much something like that comes up.

[dps]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

Ok, but what does it even mean?  And why are we supposed to agree with someone's self-identity, especially if we have no idea what we're actually agreeing to?  I mean, at least when DGuller self-identified as an expert in automotive, we all felt free to not agree with his self-identification, though at least in that case I suppose we at least thought we knew what we were disagreeing with about it.

[Eddie Teach]

He can't even pump his own gas. 

[Valmy]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

Yeah the right-wing bogeyman is a large bearded "trans woman" insisting to use a female locker room, but I don't know how much something like that comes up.

I don't know either. But that is a thing though, some trans women might not appear to be sufficiently female presenting for some people even if they are not large and bearded.

I don't know. I don't even use locker rooms.

[dps]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

Yeah the right-wing bogeyman is a large bearded "trans woman" insisting to use a female locker room, but I don't know how much something like that comes up.

I don't know either. But that is a thing though, some trans women might not appear to be sufficiently female presenting for some people even if they are not large and bearded.

I don't know. I don't even use locker rooms.

Closest I know of anything like that is that some high school kid who identified as trans (I think that technically the kid was biologically male but identified as female--and no, I'm not sure how that differs from identifying as trans or other) suing the school to try and force them to provide a separate restroom facility because the kid wasn't comfortable using either the boy's or girl's restroom.

I don't know how that played out in the courts (quite possibly the kid had already graduated before the courts rendered a decision) but the infamous NC House Bill 2 was a reaction to the case. 

[Grey Fox]

Wait until non-binary identity crosses state lines out of California.

[Duque de Bragança]

Something neo/post-feminists cannot fathom for ideological reasons. Thing is, masculine and neutral were already pretty close in Latin, only accusative was different.

Of course they can. They just know, because they live in today's society, and not in the 6th century, that language has deep social effects, that social effects have profound effects on language, and that masculine-as-neutral, in a patriarchal society, has a different connotations and different effects than it would, if we were living in a matriarchal society.

This is also ignoring the deliberate impoverishment of meaning that historically happened as women were cut off from certain occupations they initially held.

6th Century AD was not really known for its classical Latin, but for the rough transition to the Romance languages.
As for your last sentence, how could I forget about the vast patriarchal conspiracy.

[Duque de Bragança]

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men. 

I get it and I know and when I was studying French I thought that was weird, as I said I get how it would be annoying.

But I didn't think that was the only change that was being made because of grammatical gender, also GF made it sound like this was not really a problem in Quebec that you guys just made new words no problem.

The process of making the new words is not easy per se, French is slow to adapt, but they do get adopted. While France french is, apparently, still stucked using "Madame le maire" instead of a proper feminine title.

La maire de really sounds bad in French. The current female mayor of Paris is the butt of jokes thanks to it. Even easier than for males.

[Duque de Bragança]

I guess if they could show how grammatical gender in language actually correlates with gender-based injustice in society I would agree that changing the language like that should be a serious issue, but I don't really see that to be the case.  I do get that it can be annoying.

In French, a "couturier" connotes a fashion designer. A "couturière", a seamstress. A "cuisinier" connotes a chef; a "cuisinière", a homecook. And when "secrétaire", who once were positions of power held by men, became overwhelmingly women typists, the male "secrétaire" became "secrétaire of..." something, or "secrétaire-général". Still today in France, job ads for secrétaire frequently use the feminine, not the vaunted "male neutral", even if the word itself sounds the same for men and women.

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men.

Couturier means also male seamstress, nice try. You meant grand couturier. Cuisinier connotes chef if preceded by grand, again. As for cuisinière, the problem is it can also mean stove.
Your so-called positions of power theory does not explain female titles for men such as estafette or sentinelle but that's what happens with feminist cherry-picking, and uninspired one.
I was expecting the entraîneur/entraîneuse distinction, which is a bit unfair but tends to disappear since entraîneurE (sic) is ugly and unpractical.
Not to mention men had to fight to get a proper male title for sage-femme (midwife). Hint: not sage-homme. 

I guess you have not seen ads for secrétaire in a long time in your academical ivory tower. 
Try Pole Emploi/Monster/whatever  you get H/F after secrétaire since the word may be ambiguous to some, some by ignorance, others due to ideology.
Same happens with traducteur in fact, despite an a priori easier feminine form.

If masculine as neutral outrages you as a gender theorist, try to see it as genre non marqué.

[Malthus]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

Yeah the right-wing bogeyman is a large bearded "trans woman" insisting to use a female locker room, but I don't know how much something like that comes up.

I don't know either. But that is a thing though, some trans women might not appear to be sufficiently female presenting for some people even if they are not large and bearded.

I don't know. I don't even use locker rooms.

Closest I know of anything like that is that some high school kid who identified as trans (I think that technically the kid was biologically male but identified as female--and no, I'm not sure how that differs from identifying as trans or other) suing the school to try and force them to provide a separate restroom facility because the kid wasn't comfortable using either the boy's or girl's restroom.

I don't know how that played out in the courts (quite possibly the kid had already graduated before the courts rendered a decision) but the infamous NC House Bill 2 was a reaction to the case.

As far as washrooms go, the biggest beef I have heard comes from women, and it is this: washrooms for public buildings devote the same space for men as women, yet men's facilities allow for much more rapid use because of urinals. At theatres and other such places, the woman's facilities always have a long line, when the men's do not. Logically, women should have more space, but this rarely happens.

Perhaps it would make sense to allow women who want to (and are not worried about the presence of men), to use the men's facilities, regardless of self-identification. Or just allow anyone to use either, reserving a small separate facility for the sensitive of any sex or orientation.

[alfred russel]

As far as washrooms go, the biggest beef I have heard comes from women, and it is this: washrooms for public buildings devote the same space for men as women, yet men's facilities allow for much more rapid use because of urinals. At theatres and other such places, the woman's facilities always have a long line, when the men's do not. Logically, women should have more space, but this rarely happens.

Perhaps it would make sense to allow women who want to (and are not worried about the presence of men), to use the men's facilities, regardless of self-identification. Or just allow anyone to use either, reserving a small separate facility for the sensitive of any sex or orientation.

Why don't we just equip women's restrooms with urinals?

[The Brain]

Unisex restrooms???!? Who has ever heard of such a thing??

[Oexmelin]

I know. This is simply one of the supposed crucial moment for the development of "French" - and other romance languages, i.e., a moment when they drop the third gender.

Couturier means also male seamstress, nice try.

Apparently, you haven't learned the meaning of "connotes".

Your so-called positions of power theory does not explain female titles for men such as estafette or sentinelle but that's what happens with feminist cherry-picking, and uninspired one.

How permanent were these positions of vast masculine power that estafette and sentinelle evoke?

I guess you have not seen ads for secrétaire in a long time in your academical ivory tower. 

About 30 seconds before posting, to make sure I wasn't making outdated reference. It took me about that to find a bunch of ads with "secrétaire", all conjugated in the feminine. This is, of course, in addition to all those ads written as "assistante".

If masculine as neutral outrages you as a gender theorist, try to see it as genre non marqué.

The fact that you deliberately use smirks and sarcasm every time the topic comes up doesn't make you appear less outraged. You are the one so desperately clinging to an unchanging conception of the language. And for what? What is to be gained from that position, that warrants such a stubborn rejection? The fact is, these defenses of "grammatical purity" would have a lot more weight if they came from people who otherwise acknowledged the role of history, the persistent inequality between men and women, or otherwise any of the issues raised by feminists. I am not holding my breath.

If these new titles create so much masculine anxiety, try to

[chipwich]

Well I look at the judge's analysis and it doesn't seem very likely.

By what means did you discern the likelihood if you don't have a professional understanding of what standards a British judge determines Respect-in-a-democratic-society or how such a mysterious and pompous phrase entered the judicial lexicon?

[Grey Fox]

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men. 

I get it and I know and when I was studying French I thought that was weird, as I said I get how it would be annoying.

But I didn't think that was the only change that was being made because of grammatical gender, also GF made it sound like this was not really a problem in Quebec that you guys just made new words no problem.

The process of making the new words is not easy per se, French is slow to adapt, but they do get adopted. While France french is, apparently, still stucked using "Madame le maire" instead of a proper feminine title.

La maire de really sounds bad in French. The current female mayor of Paris is the butt of jokes thanks to it. Even easier than for males.

We use mairesse.