Freedom of Expression in Academia and Employment - formerly the Trans Issues.

[Valmy]

I guess if they could show how grammatical gender in language actually correlates with gender-based injustice in society I would agree that changing the language like that should be a serious issue, but I don't really see that to be the case.  I do get that it can be annoying.

[Oexmelin]

Something neo/post-feminists cannot fathom for ideological reasons. Thing is, masculine and neutral were already pretty close in Latin, only accusative was different.

Of course they can. They just know, because they live in today's society, and not in the 6th century, that language has deep social effects, that social effects have profound effects on language, and that masculine-as-neutral, in a patriarchal society, has a different connotations and different effects than it would, if we were living in a matriarchal society.

This is also ignoring the deliberate impoverishment of meaning that historically happened as women were cut off from certain occupations they initially held. 

[OttoVonBismarck]

I'm not sure that's true - for example right here, I'm pretty sure Otto takes global warming seriously but his views on transgenderism clearly are on the other "side".

I mean so keep in mind, probably 10% of things I say on the net about trans people reflect a kernel of genuine belief, and another 90% is just me trolling a really stupid cultural phenomenon (namely extreme SJWs.) I don't think this is an issue that is threatening the integrity of the Republic.

I do genuinely believe if you have a gender dysphoria such that you believe the natural, human genitals and reproductive system you have and that your DNA dictates yo have, should be mutilated and reshaped into an approximation of the physical genitalia of the opposite sex, there's something "wrong" with your brain. I actually genuinely believe that this wasn't controversial until very very recently. Gender dysphorias were and still are listed in the DSM which is what professional mental health people use to diagnose mental illness.

The argument in the trans community is that this is just "regressive" thinking, and that just like homosexuality used to be in the DSM, and now is not, soon enough gender dysphorias will not be either (the most recent DSM did relabel them and sort of shuffle them into a different category, so it looks like things are heading in that direction.) I think there is a fundamental difference between homosexuality and gender dysphoria. A homosexual experiences sexual attraction and sexual pleasure from, very broadly speaking, a different set of things than a comparable heterosexual of the same sex. The intersection between "differences in the way your brain works" and "mental illness" often is understood to relate to how it interacts with your ability to function in society. Really liking other men and wanting to fuck other men for say, most of the 20th century (up until arguably the 1980s, arguably later) undeniable caused serious issues for you as a person. It was illegal in most of the United States until the 60s, it eliminated from the person the chance of marriage and establishment of a family, it was widely seen as a grave character flaw justifying someone's termination from employment etc. So in a sense it's understandable it was classified as a mental illness. Back then, almost no one would "want" to be gay, because it was trading a normal life for a lot of grief. We now recognize that this different sexual preference really causes no harm in a society that is not bigoted, and thus homosexuality is just a natural variation in the human brain, not an illness.

It's easy for those inclined to do so to extend this argument to transgenderism, but the physical body modification is a serious deviation for me in how I look at it. The reason body dysphoria in which a person genuinely believes say, their leg is a "foreign invader" and needs removed, and someone really being obsessed with women's feet, is one is a fetish that largely causes no harm to anyone, one is something that can lead to people seeking dangerous and never healthy medical procedures. When a gender dysphoria leads to someone essentially obliterating their perfectly healthy reproductive organs, usually in a fashion that makes natural reproduction impossible, I think we're right there with other dangerous body dysphorias.

When you are talking about biologically changing someone's body, you aren't talking about societal gender any longer. The "genderqueer" and other weird terms I don't fully understand, of people who are perfectly happy with their bodies but wish to  present as a different cultural gender, or as a "fluid" gender. I view that as weird and whatever, but I don't view it as a mental illness or anything. It's just a natural variation in the mind, and rejecting the social construct of your gender to me is very different than rejecting the biological nature of your natural human body.

The trans community largely rejects these lines be drawn at all, and they actually vehemently assert that a trans person is not biologically their birth sex, their actual sex is what they feel it to be, and any reference to their biological reality is bigotry. There have been very very few studies that demonstrate there is a "real sex" separate from the understood, biological chromosomal sex. There's a famous study that lots in the trans community will reference where they took the brains of dead trans people, and they found a very small difference in some of these brains where a very small structure of a small part of the brain in the trans person was more similar to their "identified sex" than their biological sex. Except this was a study done with like 12 brains and a limited analysis of a control group or anything of that nature. This study is far from giving us scientific license to assert all trans people are "genuinely"  not the biological sex that everyone understands them to be.

When it comes to referencing someone with a pronoun, I'm from the South and politeness is ingrained in my upbringing in terms of my interactions with people in the real world--it's unlikely I would refuse to call someone what they wanted to be called in most contexts. But whether I agree with that being forced or mandated behavior would be a very different topic.

I also think it's crazy that "extreme" trans activists are doing things like forcing use of the word Latinx down the throats of a society that doesn't want this word. Something like 98% of Latinos do not like the word Latinx, they are fine with their gendered language and don't like a group of people representing like 0.5% of the entire population dictating structural changes to their language. It's some of the worst "white urban liberal" patronizing of minority people I've ever seen.

[Oexmelin]

I guess if they could show how grammatical gender in language actually correlates with gender-based injustice in society I would agree that changing the language like that should be a serious issue, but I don't really see that to be the case.  I do get that it can be annoying.

In French, a "couturier" connotes a fashion designer. A "couturière", a seamstress. A "cuisinier" connotes a chef; a "cuisinière", a homecook. And when "secrétaire", who once were positions of power held by men, became overwhelmingly women typists, the male "secrétaire" became "secrétaire of..." something, or "secrétaire-général". Still today in France, job ads for secrétaire frequently use the feminine, not the vaunted "male neutral", even if the word itself sounds the same for men and women.

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men. 

[Valmy]

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men. 

I get it and I know and when I was studying French I thought that was weird, as I said I get how it would be annoying.

But I didn't think that was the only change that was being made because of grammatical gender, also GF made it sound like this was not really a problem in Quebec that you guys just made new words no problem.

[Grey Fox]

The point of feminine titles is to audibly show women in positions of power, including in roles that were long dominated by men. 

I get it and I know and when I was studying French I thought that was weird, as I said I get how it would be annoying.

But I didn't think that was the only change that was being made because of grammatical gender, also GF made it sound like this was not really a problem in Quebec that you guys just made new words no problem.

The process of making the new words is not easy per se, French is slow to adapt, but they do get adopted. While France french is, apparently, still stucked using "Madame le maire" instead of a proper feminine title.

[Barrister]

I do genuinely believe if you have a gender dysphoria such that you believe the natural, human genitals and reproductive system you have and that your DNA dictates yo have, should be mutilated and reshaped into an approximation of the physical genitalia of the opposite sex, there's something "wrong" with your brain. I actually genuinely believe that this wasn't controversial until very very recently. Gender dysphorias were and still are listed in the DSM which is what professional mental health people use to diagnose mental illness.

The thing is - even if you accept the transgenderism = gender dysphoria = mental illness, I don't know that you're any further ahead.  I don't think we have any really effective treatment for GD other than transitioning.  And untreated GD is correlated to a lot of other negative mental health results.

Now I wish the topic of different treatment options and how effective they are was studied more (in particular for children!), but SJW activist types may have a point on this one.

[Valmy]

The problem with "SJW" types was never that their ideas weren't good, it was how they pursue and argue for those ideas. I mean there are times for militancy but "RuPaul is transphobic" stuff is counter-productive.

[Josquius]

I do genuinely believe if you have a gender dysphoria such that you believe the natural, human genitals and reproductive system you have and that your DNA dictates yo have, should be mutilated and reshaped into an approximation of the physical genitalia of the opposite sex, there's something "wrong" with your brain. I actually genuinely believe that this wasn't controversial until very very recently. Gender dysphorias were and still are listed in the DSM which is what professional mental health people use to diagnose mental illness.

The thing is - even if you accept the transgenderism = gender dysphoria = mental illness, I don't know that you're any further ahead.  I don't think we have any really effective treatment for GD other than transitioning.  And untreated GD is correlated to a lot of other negative mental health results.

Now I wish the topic of different treatment options and how effective they are was studied more (in particular for children!), but SJW activist types may have a point on this one.

I dunno. Recognising gender dysphoria as a mental illness is quite a bit ahead of those who just don't recognise it.
It's the pattern that happened with recognition of gay people really.
Started at being gay isn't a thing and gay acts were just horrible acts some men committed.
Moved onto gay men are mentally ill and have to be cured.
Then stepped up to they aren't hurting anyone so why not let them just get on with their lives together.

[The Brain]

I liked yay people better.

[Solmyr]

What the fuck does cutting off one's leg have to do with transgender, anyway? OvB's entire argument is bollocks. Not even all trans people modify their genitalia.

Also, does this extend to all unnatural body modifications or just the ones he thinks are "mental illness"? Is wearing glasses a mental illness? In the future, will cyborg modifications be a sign of mental illness?

[OttoVonBismarck]

What the fuck does cutting off one's leg have to do with transgender, anyway? OvB's entire argument is bollocks. Not even all trans people modify their genitalia.

Also, does this extend to all unnatural body modifications or just the ones he thinks are "mental illness"? Is wearing glasses a mental illness? In the future, will cyborg modifications be a sign of mental illness?

I mean it was pretty clear they're both dysphorias, they are grouped as such in the DSM. I said so in my post. I also said that not all trans people modified their genitalia, and I specifically delineated how I viewed their behaviors differently--again, in my post.

As for the line of "mental illness", like I said it's about harm. Sometimes that harm is socially constructed, and really a reflection of a fucked up society (hence society's old view on gay people.) But for stuff like leg removal, there's just medical standards in place that cutting off body parts for no medical reason is not healthy or good. The mainstream view on all dysphorias other than gender is that you should try to treat the underlying dysphoria, not attempt to encourage the underlying delusion.

[dps]

I have to admit that I just don't "get" the whole transgender thing.  When I was younger, the term was used (if it was used at all) to refer to people who had had a sex change operation.  Ok, I can understand the meaning of the word used in that context, or even in the context of people seeking or preparing for a sex change operation.  But now it's used to designate a person's identify".  If a person who was born with and still has male genitalia and has no intention of changing that, what does it even mean to "identify" as a female?  Or as trans, or other?  I'm not trolling, I just genuinely don't understand what that means.

[Valmy]

Yeah it is an identity thing I think. I mean even if somebody makes no effort to present as a female at all I guess they can still be a transwoman if they claim they are. I guess. It is not like there is a rule book or something.

[Barrister]

I have to admit that I just don't "get" the whole transgender thing.  When I was younger, the term was used (if it was used at all) to refer to people who had had a sex change operation.  Ok, I can understand the meaning of the word used in that context, or even in the context of people seeking or preparing for a sex change operation.  But now it's used to designate a person's identify".  If a person who was born with and still has male genitalia and has no intention of changing that, what does it even mean to "identify" as a female?  Or as trans, or other?  I'm not trolling, I just genuinely don't understand what that means.

Well it often means that someone dresses as a female, wears makeup, takes female hormones, grows breasts from the hormones (or has implants), but has otherwise left their genitals alone.

When you deal with someone like that, they often can't "pass" (i.e. you'd never know they were TG), but they look much more female than male, so I don't know how much difference someone's genitals play in this.

Now there are cases where someone's genitals do become important, which is why a lot of these fights come up over bathrooms.