Meanwhile in the Labour Party...

[Eddie Teach]

I don't talk politics much outside of Languish. And I'm not sure how you're defining "liberal". If you mean people who are afraid of Bernie, I would say centrist or moderate.

[Valmy]

I don't talk politics much outside of Languish. And I'm not sure how you're defining "liberal". If you mean people who are afraid of Bernie, I would say centrist or moderate.

I am defining it...the way it normally is defined. Liberals and neo-Liberals are the "centrists" and "moderates" that Progressives really dislike. And they refer to them as liberals or neo-liberals and hey we even identify ourselves that way. So I am not sure what way you are defining it.

But even so in the UK Liberalism is generally considered to be pro things like the EU, which Labour is at best ambivalent about. Acting like they are the same and can all live in the same party comfortably is not true as evidenced by how hated the Lib-Dems are by many Labour voters.

[Eddie Teach]

Ok, so you're saying "classical" liberalism has made a comeback? The term is no longer associated with more robust government programs?

[Valmy]

Ok, so you're saying "classical" liberalism has made a comeback? The term is no longer associated with more robust government programs?

Oh so was the Soviet Union a liberal state then since it had such robust government programs?

I am not sure what "classical liberalism" means exactly here. They are not minarchists or anarcho-Liberals. And would you classify moderate and centrist democrats as being opposed to government programs? I don't think the robustness of government programs has anything to do with it...or everything that is not an anarchist would be a liberal and that would be silly.

I would say being in favor of free trade and international cooperation while working to ease social problems to prevserve social stability and equal opportunity while also trying to be fiscally responsibly would be modern liberal traits. Neo-Liberalism.

[Sheilbh]

Ok, so you're saying "classical" liberalism has made a comeback? The term is no longer associated with more robust government programs?

No. I think the left of Democratic party are always moaning about "liberals" by which they mean centrists in the Democrats who are basically in the liberal tradition. I mean liberalism, certainly in the UK, always had a bit of robust government program about it - unemployment insurance, pensions etc were great Liberal Party reforms.

But even so in the UK Liberalism is generally considered to be pro things like the EU, which Labour is at best ambivalent about. Acting like they are the same and can all live in the same party comfortably is not true as evidenced by how hated the Lib-Dems are by many Labour voters.

That's what happens when you form a coalition with the Tories. Every single thing that Cameron and Osborne did between 2010-5 they did on the back of Lib Dem votes - I'd certainly never vote for them again.

No way. The Progressives would but not the Liberals. You may not tell unless you spend a lot of time talking to Democrats but those two groups do not exactly get along great these days.

I think that's over-stated and depends what you mean by the Labour Party - the Democrats don't really have anything like the hard left tradition, most progressive Democrats would be comfortable on the soft left and there are still centrists who yearn for the days of Blair and Clinton in Labour (especially the Parliamentary Labour Party).

Obviously this is within a very difficult political context - you know just look at the way Tories talk about "our NHS" in this crisis.

[Valmy]

That's what happens when you form a coalition with the Tories. Every single thing that Cameron and Osborne did between 2010-5 they did on the back of Lib Dem votes - I'd certainly never vote for them again.

Yep. They were not as leftist and counter-establishment as people thought they were. Have the Lib-Dems ever speculated as to how they might have acted differently or are the at peace with it?

I think that's over-stated and depends what you mean by the Labour Party - the Democrats don't really have anything like the hard left tradition, most progressive Democrats would be comfortable on the soft left and there are still centrists who yearn for the days of Blair and Clinton in Labour (especially the Parliamentary Labour Party).

I was simplifying a bit. But we have our more extreme leftists to, they are just less influential...for now.

Obviously this is within a very difficult political context - you know just look at the way Tories talk about "our NHS" in this crisis.

Correct. But I do think the Lib-Dems have a distinct position from both Labour and the Tories. How do you see it?

[Sheilbh]

Yep. They were not as leftist and counter-establishment as people thought they were. Have the Lib-Dems ever speculated as to how they might have acted differently or are the at peace with it?

I think they regret it. I think there are two big regrets. One is that they should have rejected a formal coalition and gone for a confidence and supply agreement so, subject to negotiations each time, they would back the government on the budget and any matters of confidence, but could otherwise vote freely. The other is that within coalition they were quite bad at really identifying Lib Dem "results" and part of the reason for this is that Nick Clegg decided to take the role of Deputy Prime Minister, which is nice but basically pointless in the UK system (it's not even a real job - we don't have a Deputy PM at the minute) and had a very general "job" of constitutional reform (but failed to win the AV Referendum). I think now they would accept he should've demanded a real job, say Home Secretary, and delivered in that so they could appoint to Lib Dem achievements.

But they're fairly at peace with it. The Lib Dems are the most internally democratic party in the UK, so they actually had to have a special one day Federal Conference to vote to endorse the coalition agreement (the Federal Executive and parliamentary party voted to accept it but it needed to be endorsed by the rank and file). Because of that I think they are reasonably at peace that they all made this decision.

I was simplifying a bit. But we have our more extreme leftists to, they are just less influential...for now.

Yeah. I just think there's no-one quite like the Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingston wing of politics that I can think of in America - there is no comparison with anyone both in terms of the politics but also their primary goal which was always winning control of the Labour Party and internal reform. That's a bigger priority for the hard left in the UK than anyone in the Democrats.

Correct. But I do think the Lib-Dems have a distinct position from both Labour and the Tories. How do you see it?

Honestly I don't know what the Lib Dems are "for" any more. And I mean that literally I don't know what any of their policies or positions are - I think they're in the middle of another leadership election, but it's easy to forget (I checked - apparently it's been postponed until 2021).

They are different, but honestly I don't know how I'd describe them at the minute and I don't know how I'd describe them post-2015 except very anti-Brexit. That may be part of the issue - they're not clear enough what they are.

[Admiral Yi]

No. I think the left of Democratic party are always moaning about "liberals" by which they mean centrists in the Democrats who are basically in the liberal tradition.

The left wing of the Democratic party never uses the word in that way.  Liberal by itself is still used here to mean progressive/lefty.  Neo-liberal is different, and can be used pejoratively, but in my impression is not used as commonly here as it is in Europe.

[Sheilbh]

The left wing of the Democratic party never uses the word in that way. 

Do you follow American lefties on social media? They are always moaning about liberals and contrasting themselves to liberals.

[Admiral Yi]

Do you follow American lefties on social media? They are always moaning about liberals and contrasting themselves to liberals.

Fair enough.  I am 100% social media free.

[Valmy]

No. I think the left of Democratic party are always moaning about "liberals" by which they mean centrists in the Democrats who are basically in the liberal tradition.

The left wing of the Democratic party never uses the word in that way.  Liberal by itself is still used here to mean progressive/lefty.  Neo-liberal is different, and can be used pejoratively, but in my impression is not used as commonly here as it is in Europe.

Not in my experience, but being one of the liberals perhaps I am just used to, and sensitive to, being attacked using that word

[Sheilbh]

Yeah - I think there's a generational thing too. I'd say probably since Bernie 2016, but obviously it had been percolating before that, a lot on the Democratic left identify as socialists which would've been anathema for almost any Democrats even 15 years ago. They draw a contrast with liberals - Buttigieg, Klobuchar etc are liberals or centrists (and it is used in the classical sense: permissive socially, fiscally conservative - I mean literally the only people who still worry about deficits are the New Democrats and their successors).

Weirdly progressives and social democrats don't really seem to exist.

There's something similar on the left in the UK actually - I think it's part of the kind of weird social media/online driven cross-pollination between the left in the UK and US despite being quite different.

[Valmy]

(and it is used in the classical sense: permissive socially, fiscally conservative - I mean literally the only people who still worry about deficits are the New Democrats and their successors).

Well...I think Rand Paul worries about it to sometimes. But yeah

[Valmy]

Yeah. I just think there's no-one quite like the Corbyn, McDonnell, Livingston wing of politics that I can think of in America - there is no comparison with anyone both in terms of the politics but also their primary goal which was always winning control of the Labour Party and internal reform. That's a bigger priority for the hard left in the UK than anyone in the Democrats.

Corbyn and those guys certainly have their fans over here, but yeah not among the actual politicians. Also a big difference is how you cannot really win control of a party in one big fight, it takes a very long time of winning lots of different elections...though usually the Presidential Primary can go a long way. See McGovern (1972) and Goldwater (1964), sure they got destroyed in the general election but those primaries were more about shifting ideological control of their respective parties than actually becoming President with both going up against popular incumbents.

[Josquius]

I can't stand it when americanised idiots use liberal to mean the centre left.

Social democrat not existing... Meh. Socialist covers that and is a lot snappier. Have to wonder though whether there's an element of purposeful trolling from the American left in choosing that word over there though