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This is how society dies

Started by merithyn, January 05, 2020, 02:21:28 PM

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Oexmelin

Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2020, 06:20:23 PM
I'm happy that there are people who don't judge me for my lack of accomplishments. :)

:thumbsup:

Que le grand cric me croque !

Valmy

#106
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
You can be impressed with whoever you want. Maybe extend some of your awe to people who get marginally less awesome GPA while having to deal with strained circumstances?

I admire anybody who even attempts that program. I certainly don't shit on people like you do. Besides how would I even know their circumstances?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Valmy

Quote from: Razgovory on January 08, 2020, 06:20:23 PM
I'm happy that there are people who don't judge me for my lack of accomplishments. :)

I admire all kinds of things, like fighting the neverending battle of Facebook. That is certainly more than I could do.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Oexmelin

Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2020, 08:58:00 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
You can be impressed with whoever you want. Maybe extend some of your awe to people who get marginally less awesome GPA while having to deal with strained circumstances?

I admire anybody who even attempts that program. I certainly don't shit on people like you do. Besides how would I even know their circumstances?

Wtf are you talking about? You didn't get what I was saying at all.
Que le grand cric me croque !

Zoupa

Yeah, I don't get Valmy's comment either  :hmm:

merithyn

Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2020, 08:58:00 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
You can be impressed with whoever you want. Maybe extend some of your awe to people who get marginally less awesome GPA while having to deal with strained circumstances?

I admire anybody who even attempts that program. I certainly don't shit on people like you do. Besides how would I even know their circumstances?

:blink:
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

mongers

Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 09:32:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2020, 08:58:00 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
You can be impressed with whoever you want. Maybe extend some of your awe to people who get marginally less awesome GPA while having to deal with strained circumstances?

I admire anybody who even attempts that program. I certainly don't shit on people like you do. Besides how would I even know their circumstances?

Wtf are you talking about? You didn't get what I was saying at all.

Yes, weird, I'd guess some internal/home/external stress caused him to fly off the handle at a random target.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Valmy

Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 09:32:10 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 08, 2020, 08:58:00 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on January 08, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
You can be impressed with whoever you want. Maybe extend some of your awe to people who get marginally less awesome GPA while having to deal with strained circumstances?

I admire anybody who even attempts that program. I certainly don't shit on people like you do. Besides how would I even know their circumstances?

Wtf are you talking about? You didn't get what I was saying at all.

It just seems like you are taking an opposite position to what Yi was saying earlier. You had that huge screed of bitterness about high achievers. I think that was really unfair. Especially the part about attacking University administrators and wondering how they can sleep at night. I mean I totally get being frustrated that more people are not getting opportunities and trying to make a more just society but taking it out on individuals just trying to do their best seemed unwarranted. I would certainly never express the same level of contempt towards people doing their best under adverse circumstances that you seemed to express towards others under more favorable circumstances. We typically are not responsible for our circumstances and as such they don't really say much about us.

Quote from: mongers on January 09, 2020, 09:19:05 AM
Yes, weird, I'd guess some internal/home/external stress caused him to fly off the handle at a random target.

You can always ask me instead of talking about me like I am not here :lol:

Anyway I took exception to his post and have for a few posts now.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."


merithyn

I'll let Oex speak for himself, but it sounded to me like he was saying something that I've long thought. We give a lot of respect to "high achievers" when a lot of the time the reason they are high achievers is because they have nothing impeding their successes.

In your case, you were working a full-time job, raising small children, supporting a partner and paying for college on your family budget all while working on your degree. That you graduated at all is a significant accomplishment.

Someone who went to university with no concerns over money, jobs, or family, and gets straight As is definitely an accomplishment, but I don't think it warrants more accolades than your "mediocre" grades.

No, we can't know every situation of every student. But to issue a blanket "Wow, those high achievers are incredible!" is no better than issuing a blanket "Wow, those underachievers really aren't very bright" either. It's a non-entity, or should be.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...

crazy canuck

Quote from: merithyn on January 09, 2020, 11:49:29 AM
I'll let Oex speak for himself, but it sounded to me like he was saying something that I've long thought. We give a lot of respect to "high achievers" when a lot of the time the reason they are high achievers is because they have nothing impeding their successes.

In your case, you were working a full-time job, raising small children, supporting a partner and paying for college on your family budget all while working on your degree. That you graduated at all is a significant accomplishment.

Someone who went to university with no concerns over money, jobs, or family, and gets straight As is definitely an accomplishment, but I don't think it warrants more accolades than your "mediocre" grades.

No, we can't know every situation of every student. But to issue a blanket "Wow, those high achievers are incredible!" is no better than issuing a blanket "Wow, those underachievers really aren't very bright" either. It's a non-entity, or should be.

Yes, and all in the context of adoring high achievers in an increasingly unequal society.  A kid from a privileged background has no excuse not to be a high achiever all other things being equal.

Oexmelin

#116
Quote from: merithyn on January 09, 2020, 11:49:29 AM
I'll let Oex speak for himself, but it sounded to me like he was saying something that I've long thought. We give a lot of respect to "high achievers" when a lot of the time the reason they are high achievers is because they have nothing impeding their successes.

In your case, you were working a full-time job, raising small children, supporting a partner and paying for college on your family budget all while working on your degree. That you graduated at all is a significant accomplishment.

Someone who went to university with no concerns over money, jobs, or family, and gets straight As is definitely an accomplishment, but I don't think it warrants more accolades than your "mediocre" grades.

No, we can't know every situation of every student. But to issue a blanket "Wow, those high achievers are incredible!" is no better than issuing a blanket "Wow, those underachievers really aren't very bright" either. It's a non-entity, or should be.

Precisely.

I also think this concern over grades as proxy for worth  is highly detrimental to the students themselves. I care a whole lot about my students, but, as I tell them frequently, I care a lot more about them as human beings and citizens than I care about their "accomplishments" especially when the measure of their accomplishments is often some kind of highly problematic metric. I find it sad that this is not a message they have often received from adults - and it shows.

EDIT: Indeed, that Valmy reads my post as if such a stance equals contempt for students seems indicative of my whole issue with the notion of achievement.
Que le grand cric me croque !

garbon

How many people realistically fit the pool of no concerns over family, jobs or money?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

mongers

Quote from: garbon on January 09, 2020, 12:38:40 PM
How many people realistically fit the pool of no concerns over family, jobs or money?

34.5% of people who attended an Oxbridge college.  :bowler:
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

merithyn

Quote from: garbon on January 09, 2020, 12:38:40 PM
How many people realistically fit the pool of no concerns over family, jobs or money?

I would argue that enough do that to use grades as a major success measure is to seriously undervalue a whole lot of really good students working under very difficult circumstances.

Full disclosure: I was a first-gen college student who struggled significantly during college because I didn't have family support. Not because they didn't care, but because they has zero idea what I was dealing with. That lack of support definitely had an impact on my ability to succeed.
Yesterday, upon the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there
He wasn't there again today
I wish, I wish he'd go away...