Technology and society

[Iormlund]

Trams and trains.

Trams in particular were pushed to the brink of extinction and are now coming back in a big way.

Right this instant, I can hear an "outdated and useless" train going by....

I think the combination of mobility apps and electric scooters/bikes could have a big impact in Europe and other regions with high-density metro areas.

I recently decided to buy a condo at a place that is ~30 minutes from the city center by bus, yet barely 5-10 minutes with a scooter.
One of the main selling points was that the place is also a 3 minute walk from the company bus stop, which means I could save quite a bit on gas (with the added advantage of reducing personal emissions). I could conceivably forego cars altogether when my current one dies (it's almost 15 years old now).

[Sheilbh]

The solution to problems of cars is to go back to.....horses and buggies?

Trams and trains.

Trams in particular were pushed to the brink of extinction and are now coming back in a big way.

Right this instant, I can hear an "outdated and useless" train going by....

Yeah but cities were re-designed the focus on the car - which was the vehicle of the future. In the UK and, I think the US, public transport networks like trams were torn up - there used to be a tram network in almost every British city. Non-core lines on railways networks were shut down.

And instead billions were spent on new motorways and re-designing cities. A few cities were able to resist - I believe New York and Copenhagen did, in London there was a bit protest movement to stop the plan to build four inter-linked ring roads right into the centre of London (and demolish, say Covent Garden) on the go.

It's really striking that the cities that best kept a form of early 20th century public transport and slightly resisted the age of the car are the cities that are now growing fastest and most economically vibrant, while the cities that bet big on cars are generally less successful.

[Tamas]

Well we can either complain about big cities sucking the life out of everywhere else, or about travel being too car-centric.

[Josquius]

Well we can either complain about big cities sucking the life out of everywhere else, or about travel being too car-centric.

The two go together quite nicely.

[Tamas]

Well we can either complain about big cities sucking the life out of everywhere else, or about travel being too car-centric.

The two go together quite nicely.

Tram lines to little towns across miles of countryside are NOT the future, as much as I detest that.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah. But Tyr's right public transport isn't and wasn't just for big cities - Bolton, Carlisle, Cambridge, Brighton, Taunton, even towns like Wantage used to have trams.

And if you have a rail network into and between towns and then public transport in those towns you mitigate the need for cars.

I also think given the climate moving away from cars is a morally urgent task that we need to do and that means far more public transport of the type we had at the turn of the twentieth century and then tore up.

[Tamas]

Yeah. But Tyr's right public transport isn't and wasn't just for big cities - Bolton, Carlisle, Cambridge, Brighton, Taunton, even towns like Wantage used to have trams.

And if you have a rail network into and between towns and then public transport in those towns you mitigate the need for cars.

I also think given the climate moving away from cars is a morally urgent task that we need to do and that means far more public transport of the type we had at the turn of the twentieth century and then tore up.

Fair enough. Although trams have not been disbanded everywhere. They are a major thing in Budapest for example, and exist in a couple of smaller cities as well.

[Josquius]

Well we can either complain about big cities sucking the life out of everywhere else, or about travel being too car-centric.

The two go together quite nicely.

Tram lines to little towns across miles of countryside are NOT the future, as much as I detest that.

You never know.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_model

There's talk that if we ever get a government that gives a shit thats the way the metro in Newcastle may develop. In Manchester it largely is to an extent.

IMO better transport is THE way the government can start paying attention to the small towns.
The industries and the coal mines aren't coming back. Your Wigans and Blyths aren't going to be particularly rich places in their own right. However by allowing them to tap into the local cities they can profit from the gains there (and they in turn profit from tapping into London and the world at large)

Fair enough. Although trams have not been disbanded everywhere. They are a major thing in Budapest for example, and exist in a couple of smaller cities as well.

I believe in eastern europe they did a much better job of surviving thanks to central planning et al.
They were the doctrinally correct proper communist choice unlike those capitalist autocars...which is also a contributor to their demise in the west.

[Sheilbh]

And the start is buses - because they're cheap to implement. It's deeply unsexy but I genuinely think the 1985 bus deregulation act is one of the worst pieces of legislation and getting rid of that would just give local councils everywhere else in the country a similar level of power as TfL.

Merseyside and Manchester have worked on public transport, but if they had anything like the powers London government does they could do so much more and as you say it would affect the towns in those ares - Bury, Wigan, Warrington etc.

[Josquius]

And the start is buses - because they're cheap to implement. It's deeply unsexy but I genuinely think the 1985 bus deregulation act is one of the worst pieces of legislation and getting rid of that would just give local councils everywhere else in the country a similar level of power as TfL.

Another reason to curse Thatcher.
If only the metropolitan counties had remained intact...sigh.

Merseyside and Manchester have worked on public transport, but if they had anything like the powers London government does they could do so much more and as you say it would affect the towns in those ares - Bury, Wigan, Warrington etc.

Things look good in Manchester at least. They're looking to break through with a London style integrated system.
When Newcastle tried the same though the government said no.

[crazy canuck]

The solution to problems of cars is to go back to.....horses and buggies?

Trams and trains.

Trams in particular were pushed to the brink of extinction and are now coming back in a big way.

Right this instant, I can hear an "outdated and useless" train going by....

Yeah but cities were re-designed the focus on the car - which was the vehicle of the future. In the UK and, I think the US, public transport networks like trams were torn up - there used to be a tram network in almost every British city. Non-core lines on railways networks were shut down.

And instead billions were spent on new motorways and re-designing cities. A few cities were able to resist - I believe New York and Copenhagen did, in London there was a bit protest movement to stop the plan to build four inter-linked ring roads right into the centre of London (and demolish, say Covent Garden) on the go.

It's really striking that the cities that best kept a form of early 20th century public transport and slightly resisted the age of the car are the cities that are now growing fastest and most economically vibrant, while the cities that bet big on cars are generally less successful.

Vancouver had a plan in the 70s to go the way of many US cities and build a major freeway system into and through the city.  It was the done thing.  Shortly after that work was started (a couple of kilometers were built) a new city council put an and to it.  Now the areas the freeway system would have passed through are some of the most valuable pieces of real estate in the city and the surrounding areas, some of the most liveable.  The city is now dismantling the freeway corridor that had been built and converting it to residential.

[Valmy]

Texas is one of the fastest growing and prosperous places in the planet and we barely have any trains or trams or ever had them. I hate to throw a wrench in everybody's predetermined conclusion here...

And unless all our cities are leveled in a war or something that is not changing...

[mongers]

Texas is one of the fastest growing and prosperous places in the planet and we barely have any trains or trams or ever had them. I hate to throw a wrench in everybody's predetermined conclusion here...

And unless all our cities are leveled in a war or something that is not changing...

Sustainably so?

[crazy canuck]

Texas is one of the fastest growing and prosperous places in the planet and we barely have any trains or trams or ever had them. I hate to throw a wrench in everybody's predetermined conclusion here...

And unless all our cities are leveled in a war or something that is not changing...

It would be good to know what you mean by prosperous.

By the measure here the US doesn't really do all that well.  Not sure how Texas alone would rank.

https://www.prosperity.com/rankings

Also does predetermined now mean, things you don't agree with 

[Sheilbh]

Texas is one of the fastest growing and prosperous places in the planet and we barely have any trains or trams or ever had them. I hate to throw a wrench in everybody's predetermined conclusion here...

And unless all our cities are leveled in a war or something that is not changing...

Sure and I did say generally. There will be exceptions. But for most of the post-war era the predetermined conclusion was the car was the future, public transport was not anywhere near as important as making sure there was space for cars.

And in those years that was right the big cities declined and small towns/suburbs and new car-friendly cities did well. That trend has now generally reversed.

Sustainably so?

I think heating/cooling is probably the bigger sustainability issue with places like Texas. At the minute 50% of global carbon emissions is tied to heating or cooling our environment. It is far bigger than transport or electricity and needs to be solved. I know one start-up that's got some very useful products on this that can work for colder environments (UK, Northern Europe). I don't know about solving AC.