Discipline in American Civil War Armies

[The Brain]

A more interesting what-if I think is East vs West. The West has hardy frontiersmen and ornery 49ers, the East has enormous population and industry but is fiercely divided over slavery.

That requires a lot of alt history backstory. There's no plausible scenario for that historically.

I have a map ready.

[dps]

A more interesting what-if I think is East vs West. The West has hardy frontiersmen and ornery 49ers, the East has enormous population and industry but is fiercely divided over slavery.

That requires a lot of alt history backstory. There's no plausible scenario for that historically.

Not in 1860, but maybe somewhere in the 1790-1820 or so timeframe.

[AnchorClanker]

Discipline, at least in the CSA Army, was certainly better in the 1st half of the war (pre-draft)

My Dad's side is from Western North Carolina, was there during the war, and our people were in the 25th NC Infantry.  Looking through the unit records, it seems that the early war 12 month enlistments worked well enough... but after the CSA instituted the draft, the desertion rate skyrocketed. 

Students of the USCW are well aware that the non-slave owning hillbillies were lukewarm about getting killed for rich plantation assholes, so it shouldn't be any big shock that E TN, W NC, and N GA folks started bouncing when they were

A) - Drafted against their will (as opposed to signing on voluntarily with an enlistment bonus)
B) - Weren't allowed generous leave to return home for the harvest
C) - Once their wives and kids began getting sick and on the thin side, they were for damned sure not leaving home to rejoin the army.
D) - E TN and W NC were hotbeds of Unionism, and draft-dodgers and deserters were thick as flies.  The CSA (ha, DRAFTED) units to go after the draft-dodgers and deserters.  About 2 miles NW of the family farm, there's a memorial to some poor kid who got caught and strung up by a patrol - a patrol that were all locals and were likely relatives of that poor kiddo. 

It's probably different from unit to unit, but I can assure you that Southern hillbilly units fall under this category - good in combat, poor in cantonment.  Discipline nightmare, as they tended to ignore CSA (and state) directives.

[AnchorClanker]

What also prompted this is I was recently found the service record of an ancestor who was an officer. I was surprised to find two reports indicating he was AWOL (1 in 1863 and 1 in 1865). However, he was never demoted and there is no indication of punishment.

Not uncommon in the slightest, at least with the CSA.

My g-g-g-grandfather overstayed his leave - he had gone home to find the family all sick with scarlet fever or somesuch.  He stayed until his wife recovered, and THEN returned back to his unit - at least a week late.  He was court-martialled, and sentenced to be shot.  As near as I could tell, when they attempted to carry out the sentence... his 16 year old son drew a pistol and threatened to shoot the first person that laid a hand upon his pa.  The sentence was not carried out.  Of note, this is Co A, 25th NC, and I know for damned sure that he was related to at least 20% of that unit... so perhaps nobody wanted to shoot their cousin.

[Syt]

Hey, AnchorClanker

[AnchorClanker]

Hey, AnchorClanker

Guten Tag!

Yeah, USCW is fun in our family as my Dad's side was CSA and my Mom's (those that were already here, most weren't) were Union.  Helping my Mom dig through some of the Union side found a great uncle who died in Paducah... lining up to board a river steamer, and some clown dropped his musket and it happened to be loaded... so if went off and killed him.  I am not sure if this was a small mercy or not, as this was right before the Battle of Shiloh...

[derspiess]

Hey Ank. 

That reminds me I ought to dig some more into great uncles & other non-direct ancestors in the ACW.  Of my direct ancestors, two served as corporals in a Virginia cavalry regiment for the South and one (my direct paternal ancestor) was drafted into an Ohio infantry regiment in 1864-- for that dude I am kind of enjoying piecing his brief service record together.  But overall my direct ancestors are kind of boring.

[alfred russel]

BB, if you are still reading this thread, I'm interested how you would respond to my point that the South couldn't trade space for time (namely because they were slave society, and if they traded space that space was effectively lost forever--the manpower would effectively vanish, if not joining or supporting the enemy).

Not because I'm trying to drag you into an all out argument, but because your argument is a common one that I've always disagreed with--but I've seldom seen addressed.

[The Minsky Moment]

My ancestors showed great discipline in fighting the Lemberg Tailors price war of 1869.  Not a one deserted even after some nasty accidental pin pricks.

[Razgovory]

I read some accounts of what the Confederates did in Western North Carolina.  Torture, murder, that sort of thing.  The sad thing is that the people there wave a flag of a regime that caused their ancestors enormous suffering.  The South lost the war but won the peace.

[The Brain]

The sad thing is that the people there wave a flag of a regime that caused their ancestors enormous suffering. 

Yes never let blacks feel like happy Americans because that would be sad.

[dps]

BB, if you are still reading this thread, I'm interested how you would respond to my point that the South couldn't trade space for time (namely because they were slave society, and if they traded space that space was effectively lost forever--the manpower would effectively vanish, if not joining or supporting the enemy).

Had the Confederacy won independence, the labor pool could be replenished.

Although that would have probably required re-opening the African slave trade, which would have lead to conflict (not necessarily open warfare) between the Confederacy and European powers, as well as the USA.

[Razgovory]

BB, if you are still reading this thread, I'm interested how you would respond to my point that the South couldn't trade space for time (namely because they were slave society, and if they traded space that space was effectively lost forever--the manpower would effectively vanish, if not joining or supporting the enemy).

Had the Confederacy won independence, the labor pool could be replenished.

Although that would have probably required re-opening the African slave trade, which would have lead to conflict (not necessarily open warfare) between the Confederacy and European powers, as well as the USA.

I think the Confederate constitution forbids this.

[Eddie Teach]

Even if not, they have to win the war first, or at least break the blockade.

[dps]

BB, if you are still reading this thread, I'm interested how you would respond to my point that the South couldn't trade space for time (namely because they were slave society, and if they traded space that space was effectively lost forever--the manpower would effectively vanish, if not joining or supporting the enemy).

Had the Confederacy won independence, the labor pool could be replenished.

Although that would have probably required re-opening the African slave trade, which would have lead to conflict (not necessarily open warfare) between the Confederacy and European powers, as well as the USA.

I think the Confederate constitution forbids this.

I'm not sure, but I do know that some of the southern "fire-eaters" definitely wanted to re-open the slave trade.