Extinction Rebellion Protests

[derspiess]

Get 'im, Yi!!

[Admiral Yi]

I don't know what he means. 

[Oexmelin]

I don't know what he means. 

That a functioning democracy needs citizens to feel that their collective expression is worth something. What you dismiss as self-gratification is an essential part of democracy. Otherwise, you have Monos, and Monos are not good for democracy.

[Admiral Yi]

That a functioning democracy needs citizens to feel that their collective expression is worth something. What you dismiss as self-gratification is an essential part of democracy. Otherwise, you have Monos, and Monos are not good for democracy.

If a particular point of view is in fact a collective expression, in the sense of one held by a majority of the electorate, then in a functioning democracy that view should already be expressed through the choice of representatives.  If it is a minority view, democracy is in no way bolstered by expressing the view loudly and insistently.  Quite the opposite, as it is based on the premise that volume and stridency trump number of votes, which is anti-democratic.

[Oexmelin]

If a particular point of view is in fact a collective expression, in the sense of one held by a majority of the electorate, then in a functioning democracy that view should already be expressed through the choice of representatives.  If it is a minority view, democracy is in no way bolstered by expressing the view loudly and insistently.  Quite the opposite, as it is based on the premise that volume and stridency trump number of votes, which is anti-democratic.

That's a very limiting view of democracy, which demands that I feel represented only in the sort of issues which my representatives deem worthy of bringing about, and only in the very specific moment of the vote. And we both know that neither can ever hope to fully encompass the sheer diversity of political views a citizen may hold at any given moment. It also assumes that political ideas emerge spontaneously in isolation, as opposed from conversations - conversations which can be loud, obnoxious, strident, stupid. It also assumes that volume and stridency is only limited to citizens in demonstration - and presumably, stridency and volume in media are somehow safe from such scathing assessment.

If the only possible democratic exchange is the fully rational, dispassionate, cigar-lounge discussion or the simple exercise of filling a ballot, then there has never been a democracy, and your ideal is, in fact, counter-productive. Democracy is about owning one's voice, and enjoying the dignity that comes with it. Your stance celebrates silence rather than dissent.  I maintain that this makes voting a meaningless ritual, democracy, a procedural matter, and citizens, disaffected from the process.

[Admiral Yi]

That's a very limiting view of democracy, which demands that I feel represented only in the sort of issues which my representatives deem worthy of bringing about, and only in the very specific moment of the vote. And we both know that neither can ever hope to fully encompass the sheer diversity of political views a citizen may hold at any given moment. It also assumes that political ideas emerge spontaneously in isolation, as opposed from conversations - conversations which can be loud, obnoxious, strident, stupid. It also assumes that volume and stridency is only limited to citizens in demonstration - and presumably, stridency and volume in media are somehow safe from such scathing assessment.

If the only possible democratic exchange is the fully rational, dispassionate, cigar-lounge discussion or the simple exercise of filling a ballot, then there has never been a democracy, and your ideal is, in fact, counter-productive. Democracy is about owning one's voice, and enjoying the dignity that comes with it. Your stance celebrates silence rather than dissent.  I maintain that this makes voting a meaningless ritual, democracy, a procedural matter, and citizens, disaffected from the process.

I do not assume that volume and stridency are limited to demonstrations.

I don't really know what you mean by "feel represented."  I suspect this is the nub of the debate.  I cast a vote for several elected officials.  I am therefore by definition represented.

Does feeling represented mean something like other people feel the same way?  Does it mean placing my opinion in the public record? 

How is the feeling of representation different than the fact of representation?

[Barrister]

The issue they're protesting over is completely valid.

How else are protests supposed to work other than be as large as possible and cause as much disruption as possible? That does not mean they should be committing violence, but it also doesn't mean they should stand in a corner singing kumbaya and not bothering anyone either.

MLK did not just give a speech before the Lincoln memorial, he lead marches across bridges and down streets that blocked traffic. He got involved in Strikes. He and other civil rights leaders challenged the powers that be and were often arrested or worse. And without those actions they would not have succeeded.

How about protests that are large and don't cause as much disruption as possible?

MLK is a pretty decent decent example.  He was arrested for violating a court order that prohibited any demonstrations or parades - something I think you and I would agree is against the constitution.  When he led marches MLK was never trying to deliberately block anyone.  The usual understanding of civil disobedience is that it is proper to disobey unjust laws.

Look, if several thousand people want to protest climate change that's great.  To the extent that it's going to inconvenience a few people while the demonstration is going on is just something we'll have to live with.  But when disruption and inconvenience becomes the sheer point of the protest, I think it is ineffective and wrong.

[crazy canuck]

This problem is not going to be solved by individual action.  It is going to take the organization the expenditure of resources that only a state, and in the case, many states acting in unison, will be able to achieve.

If the protesters can push state actors to act then that is a good thing. 

[PDH]

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of pointless acts of self gratification.

[dps]

That's a very limiting view of democracy, which demands that I feel represented only in the sort of issues which my representatives deem worthy of bringing about, and only in the very specific moment of the vote. And we both know that neither can ever hope to fully encompass the sheer diversity of political views a citizen may hold at any given moment. It also assumes that political ideas emerge spontaneously in isolation, as opposed from conversations - conversations which can be loud, obnoxious, strident, stupid. It also assumes that volume and stridency is only limited to citizens in demonstration - and presumably, stridency and volume in media are somehow safe from such scathing assessment.

If the only possible democratic exchange is the fully rational, dispassionate, cigar-lounge discussion or the simple exercise of filling a ballot, then there has never been a democracy, and your ideal is, in fact, counter-productive. Democracy is about owning one's voice, and enjoying the dignity that comes with it. Your stance celebrates silence rather than dissent.  I maintain that this makes voting a meaningless ritual, democracy, a procedural matter, and citizens, disaffected from the process.

I do not assume that volume and stridency are limited to demonstrations.

I don't really know what you mean by "feel represented."  I suspect this is the nub of the debate.  I cast a vote for several elected officials.  I am therefore by definition represented.

Does feeling represented mean something like other people feel the same way?  Does it mean placing my opinion in the public record? 

How is the feeling of representation different than the fact of representation?

Yi, given that our Founding Fathers saw fit to add a Bill of Rights that guaranteed, among other things, the right to peacefully assemble, I don't think that they would agree with you, and frankly I don't either.

[Zoupa]

I have to agree with mongers that this issue isn't very comparable to the issues MLK confronted.

The idea that protests have to use illegal means is I think A) retarded and B) dangerous to democracy. There are plenty of legal ways to protest in a modern Western country. It strikes me as unhealthy to undermine the rule of law (which in a democracy includes democracy) over any and all political issues that you happen to care about.

Sauvages. Expliquons-nous sur ce mot. Ces hommes hérissés qui, dans les jours génésiaques du chaos révolutionnaire, déguenillés, hurlants, farouches, le casse-tête levé, la pique haute, se ruaient sur le vieux Paris bouleversé, que voulaient-ils ? Ils voulaient la fin des oppressions, la fin des tyrannies, la fin du glaive, le travail pour l'homme, l'instruction pour l'enfant, la douceur sociale pour la femme, la liberté, l'égalité, la fraternité, le pain pour tous, l'idée pour tous, l'édénisation du monde, le Progrès ; et cette chose sainte, bonne et douce, le progrès, poussés à bout, hors d'eux-mêmes, ils la réclamaient terribles, demi-nus, la massue au poing, le rugissement à la bouche. C'étaient les sauvages, oui ; mais les sauvages de la civilisation.

Ils proclamaient avec furie le droit ; ils voulaient, fût-ce par le tremblement et l'épouvante, forcer le genre humain au paradis. Ils semblaient des barbares et ils étaient des sauveurs. Ils réclamaient la lumière avec le masque de la nuit.

En regard de ces hommes, farouches, nous en convenons, et effrayants, mais farouches et effrayants pour le bien, il y a d'autres hommes, souriants, brodés, dorés, enrubannés, constellés, en bas de soie, en plumes blanches, en gants jaunes, en souliers vernis, qui, accoudés à une table de velours au coin d'une cheminée de marbre, insistent doucement pour le maintien et la conservation du passé, du moyen-âge, du droit divin, du fanatisme, de l'ignorance, de l'esclavage, de la peine de mort, de la guerre, glorifiant à demi-voix et avec politesse le sabre, le bûcher et l'échafaud. Quant à nous, si nous étions forcés à l'option entre les barbares de la civilisation et les civilisés de la barbarie, nous choisirions les barbares.

[mongers]

I have to agree with mongers that this issue isn't very comparable to the issues MLK confronted.

The idea that protests have to use illegal means is I think A) retarded and B) dangerous to democracy. There are plenty of legal ways to protest in a modern Western country. It strikes me as unhealthy to undermine the rule of law (which in a democracy includes democracy) over any and all political issues that you happen to care about.

Sauvages. Expliquons-nous sur ce mot. Ces hommes hérissés qui, dans les jours génésiaques du chaos révolutionnaire, déguenillés, hurlants, farouches, le casse-tête levé, la pique haute, se ruaient sur le vieux Paris bouleversé, que voulaient-ils ? Ils voulaient la fin des oppressions, la fin des tyrannies, la fin du glaive, le travail pour l'homme, l'instruction pour l'enfant, la douceur sociale pour la femme, la liberté, l'égalité, la fraternité, le pain pour tous, l'idée pour tous, l'édénisation du monde, le Progrès ; et cette chose sainte, bonne et douce, le progrès, poussés à bout, hors d'eux-mêmes, ils la réclamaient terribles, demi-nus, la massue au poing, le rugissement à la bouche. C'étaient les sauvages, oui ; mais les sauvages de la civilisation.

Ils proclamaient avec furie le droit ; ils voulaient, fût-ce par le tremblement et l'épouvante, forcer le genre humain au paradis. Ils semblaient des barbares et ils étaient des sauveurs. Ils réclamaient la lumière avec le masque de la nuit.

En regard de ces hommes, farouches, nous en convenons, et effrayants, mais farouches et effrayants pour le bien, il y a d'autres hommes, souriants, brodés, dorés, enrubannés, constellés, en bas de soie, en plumes blanches, en gants jaunes, en souliers vernis, qui, accoudés à une table de velours au coin d'une cheminée de marbre, insistent doucement pour le maintien et la conservation du passé, du moyen-âge, du droit divin, du fanatisme, de l'ignorance, de l'esclavage, de la peine de mort, de la guerre, glorifiant à demi-voix et avec politesse le sabre, le bûcher et l'échafaud. Quant à nous, si nous étions forcés à l'option entre les barbares de la civilisation et les civilisés de la barbarie, nous choisirions les barbares.

Good stuff Zoupa.

But that's an awfully big claim to ascribe to a clique that disrupts transport for a few week days.

[Admiral Yi]

mongers has the French.  He has the learning.

[Admiral Yi]

Yi, given that our Founding Fathers saw fit to add a Bill of Rights that guaranteed, among other things, the right to peacefully assemble, I don't think that they would agree with you, and frankly I don't either.

I'm not denying anyone's right to construst as many giant paper-mache puppets as they wish; Ii'm questioning the efficacy and utility of their actions.

[Richard Hakluyt]

The problem with most protest movements (in a democratic state) is that they preach to the converted. I think climate extinction are a classic case of this. Have they forgotten (do they even know) that hourly-paid employees will lose money if they are delayed in getting to work and that their already inadequate pay packets will be even lighter? They are middle class folk already steeped in the need for change, their target should be to communicate this need to the masses.

Which is something that David Attenborough does so well in his documentaries. He calmly presents what is going on without hectoring. He isn't someone who can be dismissed as a scruffy lefty, being BBC aristocracy. Daily mail readers in the shires watch his shows and start to agonise over plastic waste. He has done so much more than all these protestors in raising consciousness and winning hearts and minds.

Which leads to change, even the current shabby excuse for a UK government are initiating change https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-plan-to-ban-plastic-straws-cotton-buds-and-stirrers

Even Mark Carney (governor of the Bank of England) is making speeches warning companies that if they don't adapt to the new green9er) economy then they will face destruction https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-34393864/bank-of-england-boss-carney-warns-of-global-warming-risk

The door to change is already opening at least in the UK; as individuals we need to think carefully about how we can help push that door open.