Pope: Condoms no help against AIDS in Africa, condoms might make things worse.

[Martinus]

This is again a hysterical retarded argument.

The church opposes premarital sex, sex outside of marriage and use of contraceptives.  So when somebody violates the first two and follows the pope on the third how is that the church's fault?

Has there really in the history of mankind somebody who said "I'm going to heat on my wife with a hooker but I'm not going to use a condom because it would violate my faith?"

Really?  Is this the best argument the retarded left can come up with?

I think the problem is more along the lines that since virtually no modern couple is going to die with each only having one sex partner as the Church would want, condoms have a place in HIV prevention. But the Church is trying to prevent condom access through misinformation in places rife with promiscuity and HIV.

That may be true in the West, but not in Africa, where a lot of people are born with HIV.

[Martinus]

I don't keep very careful tabs on the doings of the Vatican (as microstates go, they have a shortage of hedge fund registrations), but it seems like there has been a real drop off from JP II to Benedict.

I think on some issues Benedict just maintains the party line (like all the sex-related issues) so there is not much change there.

However, he has also abandoned a lot of relatively progressive policies of JP2 (such as, for example, virtually all attempts at dialogue with other cultures and religions) and also lacks a lot of JP2's charisma and reputation (change from a Pope who helped to dismantle communism to a Pope who used to be in Hitler Jugend illustrates this drop in reputation and non-religious authority the best) so the overall balance is negative.

[Martinus]

I don't keep very careful tabs on the doings of the Vatican (as microstates go, they have a shortage of hedge fund registrations), but it seems like there has been a real drop off from JP II to Benedict.

I have mixed views on Benedict so far.  I think a lot of his social teachings, such as this, are broadly very much a continuation of JP2's legacy.

On certain internal Church governance issues though I'm not so keen. 

Although one positive step would be if he appointed Bernard Longley Archbishop of Westminster, as has been predicted.  There's been a lot of concern from some of his appointments that Benedict is trying to make conservative the traditionally liberal episcopates.  If he appoints Longley he won't have done that in England at least.  Longley agrees with the Church on everything as you'd expect, but he's most famous for having established a service for LGBT (I hate that acronym) Catholics in Soho, and for integrating it with local Anglican services.  Though he was attacked by conservatives he argued that there's nothing that stops a gay person from being Catholic, there is no means test to receive the love of the Church and, like the great Cardinal Basil Hume (SANTO SUBITO!) that though the Church opposes homosexual acts it must always be careful to speak such opposition in a way that doesn't  denigrate the human dignity of individuals.

This is what I mean by the Catholic Church being different in England than Poland, Marty

Well, while grumbler may call it a "no true Scotsman fallacy", I personally see catholicism in countries where it is dominant (e.g. Poland, Italy, South America, Ireland) much more representative of what it truly is than catholicism in countries where it is one of the competing religions (like the US or the UK).

By the same token, I would see the Soviet, Chinese or Cuban representations of communism much more telling of the true nature of communism than that exemplified by the communist parties or organisations in France or the US.

[grumbler]

Well, while grumbler may call it a "no true Scotsman fallacy", I personally see catholicism in countries where it is dominant (e.g. Poland, Italy, South America, Ireland) much more representative of what it truly is than catholicism in countries where it is one of the competing religions (like the US or the UK).

Nope.  This isn't a NTS fallacy because you are simply stating your opinions about the "Catholicity" of policies based on what country the church issuing them belongs to.  An NTS fallacy exists when one argues that an action taken by a "Scotsman" cannot be admitted as evidence because "no true Scotsman" would ever take such an action (and thus the actor isn't a "Scotsman" at all).  See DGuller's "If you're talking about American Catholics, then you're not talking about real Catholics" example: a classic example of the NTS fallacy.

[Martinus]

Well, while grumbler may call it a "no true Scotsman fallacy", I personally see catholicism in countries where it is dominant (e.g. Poland, Italy, South America, Ireland) much more representative of what it truly is than catholicism in countries where it is one of the competing religions (like the US or the UK).

Nope.  This isn't a NTS fallacy because you are simply stating your opinions about the "Catholicity" of policies based on what country the church issuing them belongs to.  An NTS fallacy exists when one argues that an action taken by a "Scotsman" cannot be admitted as evidence because "no true Scotsman" would ever take such an action (and thus the actor isn't a "Scotsman" at all).  See DGuller's "If you're talking about American Catholics, then you're not talking about real Catholics" example: a classic example of the NTS fallacy.

Well but in a sense I agree with his argument - US catholics are not good representatives of catholicism as a whole. They are much more liberal, I am led to understand, for one.

[grumbler]

Well but in a sense I agree with his argument - US catholics are not good representatives of catholicism as a whole. They are much more liberal, I am led to understand, for one.

Again, this is because you want to categorize people and I don't.

The issue was that DGuller claimed that devout Catholics had a higher birth rate than non-catholics, because the Pope was against contraception.  alfred russel  countered that he didn't know many Catholics with six kids. 

Catholic countries have low birth rates (Italy, Austria, Poland, etc) and high birth rates (both Congos, Rwanda and Burundi, etc).  Some non-catholic countries have a low birth rate (Japan, US, Brirain, etc) while some have a high birth rate (Niger, Mali, Afghanistan, etc).  It seems clear to me that what distinguished birthrate isn't whether one is a "real Catholic" or not, but what societies one lives in, and in particular how well-educated the women there are.

So, while you may want to waste your time trying to define who is a "good catholic" to prove a point that is completely irrelevant, I really don't give a shit, because it is pretty clear to anyone whose has spent more than nanoseconds on the topic is that it isn't the Pope's position on birth control that drives birthrate, no matter how badly you and DGuller want to believe that it is.

[Scipio]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

[grumbler]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

How about we just call them Type 3 Believers in Invisible Superfriends, and leave it at that.  Most of them are not even Roman any more, so yor choice is out of date.  8)

[Martinus]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

I can disparage catholics, since I'm an atheist, but your ridicule, coming from a follower of orthodoxy (which is even more retarded and backward than catholicism) is rather silly.

Both orthodox and catholics are stupid, but orthodox are more FAIL.

[Scipio]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

I can disparage catholics, since I'm an atheist, but your ridicule, coming from a follower of orthodoxy (which is even more retarded and backward than catholicism) is rather silly.

Both orthodox and catholics are stupid, but orthodox are more FAIL.

I defy you to prove your allegations.  We don't proscribe birth control, for example.  We also don't assert textually false interpolations as dogma.  Nor do we pretend to religious infallibility, or subscribe to the immaculate conception (without a doubt the goofiest modern catholic belief).

[Ed Anger]

I don't believe in atheists.

[Martinus]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

I can disparage catholics, since I'm an atheist, but your ridicule, coming from a follower of orthodoxy (which is even more retarded and backward than catholicism) is rather silly.

Both orthodox and catholics are stupid, but orthodox are more FAIL.

I defy you to prove your allegations.  We don't proscribe birth control, for example.  We also don't assert textually false interpolations as dogma.  Nor do we pretend to religious infallibility, or subscribe to the immaculate conception (without a doubt the goofiest modern catholic belief).

Orthodox: Religion of Russians.

Q.E.D.

[Scipio]

Catholics are not catholic, anyway.  Let's just call them the Roman heretics, and leave it at that.

I can disparage catholics, since I'm an atheist, but your ridicule, coming from a follower of orthodoxy (which is even more retarded and backward than catholicism) is rather silly.

Both orthodox and catholics are stupid, but orthodox are more FAIL.

I defy you to prove your allegations.  We don't proscribe birth control, for example.  We also don't assert textually false interpolations as dogma.  Nor do we pretend to religious infallibility, or subscribe to the immaculate conception (without a doubt the goofiest modern catholic belief).

Orthodox: Religion of Russians.

Q.E.D.

Polish chauvinism from a self-loathing Pole.  Let's face it, in a previous life, you were a Polish concentration camp guard.

[PDH]

I don't believe in atheists.

I tried not to believe in Tim, but he existed all the same 

[Ed Anger]

I don't believe in atheists.

I tried not to believe in Tim, but he existed all the same 

You said his name three times.  :-[