401(k)s Will be Unthinkable in 50 Years

[Valmy]

Oh there are other alternatives. We create a program that is supposed to manage old age and it fails to do so for a huge proportion of the population...so then we create another expensive program to cover the people who failed in the first program.

Isn't a public program to cover people basically a socialist program?

My point was that faulty programs tend to result in additional programs because politicians have to promise to fix problems. Actually having a massive elderly homeless problem is generally not something that a democratic society can functionally maintain before the old people vote in people to fix it.

So if you don't get out ahead of that, it is likely to end up costing your more down the road. Penny wise, pound foolish and all that.

[Malthus]

The whole "leave the house at 18 and everybody fend for yourselves! See you at Christmas!" deal I was told was how it was supposed to work when I was growing up. That might have worked fine in the 1960s or some shit but these days I think it just means everybody in your family will likely be deep in debt.

But that is just, like, my opinion man.

I think that has changed a lot since I was young.

Nowadays, people on average have less kids, and the expectation - at least among people I know - is that the parents will save a wack of cash to get their kids through to their first job, paying for stuff like university, assuming of course the parents can save cash; plus at least in major cities, rent is so steep that kids live with their parents until they have an independent income (and sometimes for longer!).

Though that could well be an upper-middle-class thing, I don't know. After all, without it, your kid's chances of staying in the upper middle class go down.

[Malthus]

My point was that faulty programs tend to result in additional programs because politicians have to promise to fix problems. Actually having a massive elderly homeless problem is generally not something that a democratic society can functionally maintain before the old people vote in people to fix it.

So if you don't get out ahead of that, it is likely to end up costing your more down the road. Penny wise, pound foolish and all that.

Yup.

[derspiess]

I think the nuclear family ideology is for suckers.

The whole "leave the house at 18 and everybody fend for yourselves! See you at Christmas!" deal I was told was how it was supposed to work when I was growing up. That might have worked fine in the 1960s or some shit but these days I think it just means everybody in your family will likely be deep in debt.

But that is just, like, my opinion man.

So that's what a nuclear family means to you?

[Valmy]

I think the nuclear family ideology is for suckers.

The whole "leave the house at 18 and everybody fend for yourselves! See you at Christmas!" deal I was told was how it was supposed to work when I was growing up. That might have worked fine in the 1960s or some shit but these days I think it just means everybody in your family will likely be deep in debt.

But that is just, like, my opinion man.

So that's what a nuclear family means to you?

Yep. Parents and kids.

[derspiess]

I think the nuclear family ideology is for suckers.

The whole "leave the house at 18 and everybody fend for yourselves! See you at Christmas!" deal I was told was how it was supposed to work when I was growing up. That might have worked fine in the 1960s or some shit but these days I think it just means everybody in your family will likely be deep in debt.

But that is just, like, my opinion man.

So that's what a nuclear family means to you?

Yep. Parents and kids.

Sure. I wasn't aware that pushing the 18-year olds out on their own was part of that deal, though.

[The Brain]

It has given us some very important pornos.

[Habbaku]

 

[Eddie Teach]

How do you judge the relative importance of a porno? 

[The Brain]

How do you judge the relative importance of a porno? 

It's more an art than a science, granted.

[Valmy]

Sure. I wasn't aware that pushing the 18-year olds out on their own was part of that deal, though.

I don't want to get into semantics

I think I was just trying to communicate that the extended family should look after each other. Multi-generational households, that sort of thing. You know, the old ways we thought we didn't need anymore.

[Threviel]

I come from a family where it was more or less expected that you move out in late teens and start living your own life. The parents gave some support, but nothing serious.

My wife on the other hand is farmer stock and in her family they take care of each other, very few siblings for a few generations has made it possible for my wife and her brother to both receive a small farm each with a house. Her brother moved out in his early twenties and this opportunity of cheap living and a workoholic character has made him somewhat rich. All the time supported with lots of help from the parents.

For my part it made it economically possible to re-enter university in my late twenties and get a degree. Now we are rather well off, although not wealthy.

We plan on following my wife's family traditions, we are saving for our two kids and, when time comes, I hope that we can set them up with houses or at least lessen their mortgages.

I don't plan on living in a multi-generational household, that sounds horrible for everyone involved.

[dps]

I'm with you Speesh.  Keep fighting the good fight!

A 40k doesn't require rocket science.  All it requires is inactivity.

At some point you have to look at what actually happens, not at what’s supposed to happen.  That applies to all ideologies, not just communism.  If many people do wind up with few savings, then I guess it’s enough of a rocket science to them. 

Real people have all sorts of mental biases that make them do bad investment decisions, so designing a social policy around them not having those biases is indicative of not keeping your own political biases under control.

I agree with this - a certain amount of socialism is simply necessary for society to function well. Retirement savings and healthcare are two areas in which it makes sense that the problems be handled at least in large part through public plans. The alternative is basically casting the old and the sick out to fend for themselves. The difficulty is always going to be how to avoid the costs of such plans increasing exponentially ...

That's why we have Social Security.

And don't tell me that retired people can't live on Social Security alone.  The trick is to own your home and have the mortgage paid off before you retire.  My mom lived on her own for may years on Social Security.  Could she have done that if she had had to pay rent or a mortgage?  Probably not.  But without having to pay for housing--most people's biggest monthly expense--you can live ok on just an SS check.

[Malthus]

That's why we have Social Security.

And don't tell me that retired people can't live on Social Security alone.  The trick is to own your home and have the mortgage paid off before you retire.  My mom lived on her own for may years on Social Security.  Could she have done that if she had had to pay rent or a mortgage?  Probably not.  But without having to pay for housing--most people's biggest monthly expense--you can live ok on just an SS check.

In the city I live in, anyone who has the financial means to own a home mortgage-free probably doesn't have to worry about money to live on after retirement too much! 

[dps]

That's why we have Social Security.

And don't tell me that retired people can't live on Social Security alone.  The trick is to own your home and have the mortgage paid off before you retire.  My mom lived on her own for may years on Social Security.  Could she have done that if she had had to pay rent or a mortgage?  Probably not.  But without having to pay for housing--most people's biggest monthly expense--you can live ok on just an SS check.

In the city I live in, anyone who has the financial means to own a home mortgage-free probably doesn't have to worry about money to live on after retirement too much! 

That's why suburbs exist.