Philadelphia Bans ‘Cashless’ Stores Amid Growing Backlash

[Syt]

I was in China for work last year and what quite surprised me was that no-one seemed to use cash. I was in Beijing and Ningbo, so it might be a big city thing though. Apparently they used an app that was unusable for tourists, since you needed a whatever number from the state. Visa was not accepted unless it was a big store, only foreigners seemed to use cards.

Quite easy to see why the Chinese state would want its people to use apps.

Anyone left with more know-how? Jacob?

I'm guessing it's easier to track citizens' consumer behavior for the purpose of social points that way.

[Monoriu]

I was in China for work last year and what quite surprised me was that no-one seemed to use cash. I was in Beijing and Ningbo, so it might be a big city thing though. Apparently they used an app that was unusable for tourists, since you needed a whatever number from the state. Visa was not accepted unless it was a big store, only foreigners seemed to use cards.

Quite easy to see why the Chinese state would want its people to use apps.

Anyone left with more know-how? Jacob?

It isn't just the number.  You need a Chinese bank account, Chinese mobile phone account and Chinese ID to use that app.  I can't use it because I lack all three. 

[jimmy olsen]

How does tourism operate then if you can't spend money at most places?

[Threviel]

Cash was still king and worked everywhere.

[Monoriu]

How does tourism operate then if you can't spend money at most places?

You can.  They still take cash and credit cards (usually mainland cards.  Major tourist places still accept Visa/Mastercard).  They just give you odd looks when they take your cash. 

[Threviel]

Ah, yes, you might also know of course 

Can you Hong Kongers get that app? And that excellent taxi app?

[The Brain]

Siding with businesses over consumers kind of choice?

Lack of coercion kind of choice.

[ulmont]

Excellent find Ulmont.

I feel like it should be required.

Eh.  It makes sense for a store to be able to put reasonable restrictions on, such as no bills larger than $X ($20? $100), you can't pay for a $1000 lawnmower with 10,000 pennies, etc. etc.  And if a store can do that, why not be able to ban cash?

[Oexmelin]

I once worked in the general services of a bank's HQ (basically, we handled money transfers between branches, counted bills and retired soiled and used bills to be sent to the Bank of Canada to be destroyed). When I was there, the question arose from a branch, where a guy, convinced that people were required by law to accept legal tender, had decided to pay his alimony in pennies. Which means this asshole preferred to pay for containers (huge blue plastic bins), transportation, and even a crane to dump that in front of his ex's driveway rather than pay upfront. Upon assurances from counsel, we could tell this branch manager that his client, the ex, could safely refuse that payment and request the whole thing to be removed from her property.

(Another similar asshole used soiled boxers as check for alimony. That one was technically legal. We just refused to handle them).

[dps]

Excellent find Ulmont.

I feel like it should be required.

Eh.  It makes sense for a store to be able to put reasonable restrictions on, such as no bills larger than $X ($20? $100), you can't pay for a $1000 lawnmower with 10,000 pennies, etc. etc.  And if a store can do that, why not be able to ban cash?

That's like saying that if the government can put zoning restrictions on property usage, it can also ban all private property.  It's sort of an inverse slippery slope argument.

[Monoriu]

Ah, yes, you might also know of course 

Can you Hong Kongers get that app? And that excellent taxi app?

I tried but I can't get it to work.  As I said, I need the three things to make it work.  I am sure a lot of HKers have those and they can use the app, but I am not one of them. 

[mongers]

I once worked in the general services of a bank's HQ (basically, we handled money transfers between branches, counted bills and retired soiled and used bills to be sent to the Bank of Canada to be destroyed). When I was there, the question arose from a branch, where a guy, convinced that people were required by law to accept legal tender, had decided to pay his alimony in pennies. Which means this asshole preferred to pay for containers (huge blue plastic bins), transportation, and even a crane to dump that in front of his ex's driveway rather than pay upfront. Upon assurances from counsel, we could tell this branch manager that his client, the ex, could safely refuse that payment and request the whole thing to be removed from her property.

(Another similar asshole used soiled boxers as check for alimony. That one was technically legal. We just refused to handle them).

Yes and in the UK the legal tender limits are surpisingly narrow. iirc you can't force someone to take payment in 'coppers' if it's more than 2-3 quid, say one one hundred coins.

And for the 'silver' 5,10,20 and 50p coins it's probably below the value of the highest value paper currency, I guess. No idea about pound and two pound coins.

edit:
It's even narrower than I remember:
https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines/

Coins are legal tender throughout the United Kingdom for the following amount:

£2 - for any amount
£1 - for any amount

50p - for any amount not exceeding £10
25p (Crown) - for any amount not exceeding £10
20p - for any amount not exceeding £10

10p - for any amount not exceeding £5
5p - for any amount not exceeding £5

2p - for any amount not exceeding 20p
1p - for any amount not exceeding 20p

So a shop keeper could refuse payment for a 30p snickers if he was only offered 15-30 copper coins.  :gasp:

Alternatively I have made a fundamental misunderstanding about in what context legal tender is used. 



Real* silver coinage in the £100, £50, £20 and £5 denominations is made and legal tender, but obviously it's not 'designed' for circulation, but collecting.

* I assume it's 925 sterling silver.

[Eddie Teach]

you can't pay for a $1000 lawnmower with 10,000 pennies,

Of course not, you'd still have to come up with the other $900.

[ulmont]

That's like saying that if the government can put zoning restrictions on property usage, it can also ban all private property.  It's sort of an inverse slippery slope argument.

Interesting example, as the line between "legitimate government restrictions on property" [not worth anything to the landowner] and a "regulatory taking" [government owes compensation to the landowner as essentially eminent domain] is often heavily litigated.

you can't pay for a $1000 lawnmower with 10,000 pennies,

Of course not, you'd still have to come up with the other $900.

I think my first mental example was at $100 and I forgot to adjust the decimal after I upped the cost of the lawnmower.

[jimmy olsen]

I once worked in the general services of a bank's HQ (basically, we handled money transfers between branches, counted bills and retired soiled and used bills to be sent to the Bank of Canada to be destroyed). When I was there, the question arose from a branch, where a guy, convinced that people were required by law to accept legal tender, had decided to pay his alimony in pennies. Which means this asshole preferred to pay for containers (huge blue plastic bins), transportation, and even a crane to dump that in front of his ex's driveway rather than pay upfront. Upon assurances from counsel, we could tell this branch manager that his client, the ex, could safely refuse that payment and request the whole thing to be removed from her property.

I think I remember a story from when I was in my teens about a guy who'd been collecting quarters his whole life and he paid for a pickup truck with them, it was like 10 or 12 thousand dollars worth. They accepted it, but I guess they could have chosen not to.