The high price of stale grievance

[Malthus]

Though Blacks in America have a better claim to remaining "dominated" to this day than francophones in Quebec, by any objective measure.

To this day, yes, without a doubt. But to give a measure of the historical situation in 1960, French Canadiens then completed, on average 10 years of school compared to 11 for African-Americans, and their salary was 52% of those of Anglos (that of African-American, was 54% of white Americans).

... which, to complete the thought, it is exactly why it is odd to see someone very conscious of such *historical* grievances when it comes to their own nation, posting an article so dismissive of the historical grievances of Blacks in another. 

[Oexmelin]

Quillette is the classic case of the current right wing propension to pose a victims of other people's victim complex.

[The Minsky Moment]

Is it a disadvantage to be black in the show business?  I don't think so.  There's plenty of blacks at all levels of the show business. 

I don't think the conclusion follows. If African-Americans face discrimination or barriers to entry in show business, but face even greater barriers to entry in other fields, then you would expect to see relatively high levels of African-American participation in show business, notwithstanding the disadvantages.

[Valmy]

The answers to both grievance being under handed laughter is that the dominant group thinks that the oppression of the dominated group has ended.

Though Blacks in America have a better claim to remaining "dominated" to this day than francophones in Quebec, by any objective measure.

What sorts of objective measures?

Any, really. 

How about incarceration rates? % of Blacks in America in prison vs. non-Blacks in US vs. % of Francophones in prison in Canada (or Quebec) vs. non-Francophones.

So are men oppressed compared to women then since they have a much higher incarceration rate? If we consider this an objective measure of oppression then surely it should always hold up.

[Malthus]

The answers to both grievance being under handed laughter is that the dominant group thinks that the oppression of the dominated group has ended.

Though Blacks in America have a better claim to remaining "dominated" to this day than francophones in Quebec, by any objective measure.

What sorts of objective measures?

Any, really. 

How about incarceration rates? % of Blacks in America in prison vs. non-Blacks in US vs. % of Francophones in prison in Canada (or Quebec) vs. non-Francophones.

So are men oppressed compared to women then since they have a much higher incarceration rate? If we consider this an objective measure of oppression then surely it should always hold up.

Doesn't follow.

Yes, there is a difference between men and women - there is in comparative income as well - but to measure the inequality of *Blacks* as a whole, the better measure would certainly be Black men vs. Black men and Black women vs. non-Black women, not Black women vs. Black men.

Certainly, arguments can be made that Black men (or women) are more or less disadvantaged - you will find those under "intersectionality"  - but if talking about Blacks as a whole, you have to look to both sexes when compared with non-Blacks.

I mean, is it even seriously alleged Blacks aren't doing worse than Whites in America? I thought the debate wasn't whether they were doing worse, but why they were doing worse (some mix of racist animus, historical disadvantage manifest in present problems, unequal impact of certain government programs and laws, and internal cultural factors - everyone with a different idea of how much of what to emphasize).

[Admiral Yi]

You're missing Valmy's point Malthus.  If incarceration rate is an objective measure of oppression then men in general, having a higher incarceration rate than women, are oppressed in comparison to women.

[Malthus]

To add some figures: in 2010, incarceration rates (per 100K):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

White male: 678

White female: 91

Black male:  4,347

Black female: 260

Certainly, Black male incarceration is much more unequal (more than 6 times White male incarceration) versus Black female (almost 3 times), but the important fact here is that *both* are much, much higher.

Mind you, this is only one factor, and you'd get a better impression if you looked at lots of factors.

[The Minsky Moment]

Also - Innocent African-American suspects are far more likely to be convicted than innocent suspects of any other race. That's a even trickier one to give a neutral explanation for.

[Malthus]

You're missing Valmy's point Malthus.  If incarceration rate is an objective measure of oppression then men in general, having a higher incarceration rate than women, are oppressed in comparison to women.

This assumes that the figure only measures oppression and nothing else, which (as far as I know) no-one actually alleges.

Which is why it makes sense to look at comparative figures for both sexes. Perhaps men are more likely to commit crimes than women, yet *at the same time* there is an element of oppression involved based on race ... in which case, one would expect that the same pattern would be repeated with women ... that is, Black women would be incarcerated at a higher level than White women.

Which, oddly enough, happens to be true.

[crazy canuck]

The answers to both grievance being under handed laughter is that the dominant group thinks that the oppression of the dominated group has ended.

Though Blacks in America have a better claim to remaining "dominated" to this day than francophones in Quebec, by any objective measure.

What sorts of objective measures?

Any, really. 

How about incarceration rates? % of Blacks in America in prison vs. non-Blacks in US vs. % of Francophones in prison in Canada (or Quebec) vs. non-Francophones.

It would be interesting to look at that data.  The problem with including all non-Francophones is that you would be including aboriginals who undoubtedly have issues regarding over representation.  I am not sure how one would go about getting a good control group for comparison though.

[The Minsky Moment]

BTW - it's possible women have some advantage in the US criminal justice system.  I would expect (based in part on anecdotal experience) that women with younger children in particular are less likely to be prosecuted for similar conduct, more likely to receive favorable plea deals, and less likely to receive harsh sentences, among other things.  Whether this amounts to male oppression is a question I'll let others pass on.

[Valmy]

Also - Innocent African-American suspects are far more likely to be convicted than innocent suspects of any other race. That's a even trickier one to give a neutral explanation for.

Yes but there are other groups in the US that could claim they are oppressed that do not have this problem. Certainly this could be an indication of oppression (and granted a pretty profound one) but I am not sure it is some kind of objective measure that can used in all cases. Therefore it does not follow that we can objectively show Canadian Francophones have a bad/worse claim to being "dominated".

I am not sure there are objective measures for this sort of thing that one could successfully use to prove this. Hence why I asked Malthus the question.

[Valmy]

BTW - it's possible women have some advantage in the US criminal justice system.  I would expect (based in part on anecdotal experience) that women with younger children in particular are less likely to be prosecuted for similar conduct, more likely to receive favorable plea deals, and less likely to receive harsh sentences, among other things.  Whether this amounts to male oppression is a question I'll let others pass on.

Well I don't think so as I don't necessarily think higher incarceration rates are an objective measure of oppression. There is a lot of subjectivity in there.

[Malthus]

The answers to both grievance being under handed laughter is that the dominant group thinks that the oppression of the dominated group has ended.

Though Blacks in America have a better claim to remaining "dominated" to this day than francophones in Quebec, by any objective measure.

What sorts of objective measures?

Any, really. 

How about incarceration rates? % of Blacks in America in prison vs. non-Blacks in US vs. % of Francophones in prison in Canada (or Quebec) vs. non-Francophones.

It would be interesting to look at that data.  The problem with including all non-Francophones is that you would be including aboriginals who undoubtedly have issues regarding over representation.  I am not sure who one would go about getting a good control group for comparison though.

You would have to exclude aboriginals on both sides of the equation, I think.

Unfortunately, the data isn't easy to get - basically, in Canada, it seems to be broken down into male/female and aboriginal/non-aboriginal.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/14700-eng.htm

Interesting point: while in the US, the overrepresentation of Black men is worse that that of Black women (though both are overrepresented), in Canada the overrepresentation of Aboriginal women was worse than that of Aboriginal men (though once again, bith are overrepresented).

From the article:

The overrepresentation of Aboriginal adults was more pronounced for females than males. Aboriginal females accounted for 38% of female admissions to provincial and territorial sentenced custody, while the comparable figure for Aboriginal males was 26%. In the federal correctional services, Aboriginal females accounted for 31% of female admissions to sentenced custody, while the figure for Aboriginal males was 23%.

Not sure why though. There's a sociology paper in that for someone.

[Malthus]

Also - Innocent African-American suspects are far more likely to be convicted than innocent suspects of any other race. That's a even trickier one to give a neutral explanation for.

Yes but there are other groups in the US that could claim they are oppressed that do not have this problem. Certainly this could be an indication of oppression (and granted a pretty profound one) but I am not sure it is some kind of objective measure that can used in all cases. Therefore it does not follow that we can objectively show Canadian Francophones have a bad/worse claim to being "dominated".

I am not sure there are objective measures for this sort of thing that one could successfully use to prove this. Hence why I asked Malthus the question.

That was given as one example of an objective factor.

Obviously, you would have to look at the totality of the factors to draw a conclusion. In this case, pretty well no matter what factor you looked at concerning comparative well-being - income, education, incarceration, etc. etc. - Blacks are, on average, worse off than non-Blacks in America.

... which is why I said "all of them".

Of course, these factors - none of them - measure "oppression" alone. What they do, is demonstrate Blacks are worse off, which may have, for any particular factor, more than one cause. Examining them all, though, and it is hard not to come to the conclusion that, collectively, they add up to a hefty element of "oppression".