Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[Admiral Yi]

Rebellion is a pretty low bar to set.
What about just crime?

I'm persuaded by welfare spending that cost efficiently reduces crime.  Midnight basketball for example.  Cheap to run and it has been shown to reduce crime.

[Valmy]

What else do you think the origin of welfare policies was?

OK.  Then it becomes an optimization question.  What is the absolute minimum amount of free money that will prevent rebellion.

That is the key isn't it? What is the amount that is necessary to ensure a stable and free society? And more than the actual amount but what the optimal way to use said amount?

[Sheilbh]

I mean that is how consent is sometimes obtained.

All of human society includes a lot of coercion.

Chill out Rousseau

I think the vast majority of human society is some form of consent of the governed (which may include an ultimate threat of coercion) and actually relying on coercive power is pretty rare, but it does exist.

[Admiral Yi]

That is the key isn't it? What is the amount that is necessary to ensure a stable and free society? And more than the actual amount but what the optimal way to use said amount?

Eh, stable yes, free no.  Welfare doesn't make a person free, unless you're including magic words like freedom from want and freedom from hunger.

This is not the key to the policy IMO, it's an entertaining thought experiment.  At no point in history have people broken out in rebellion over the level of food stamps or housing vouchers.  It's not a practical concern.

[Josquius]

Rebellion is a pretty low bar to set.
What about just crime?

I'm persuaded by welfare spending that cost efficiently reduces crime.  Midnight basketball for example.  Cheap to run and it has been shown to reduce crime.

But you recognise that we live in a complex world right?
That rarely is there such a neat situation of change one factor = instant short term results. Most serious change comes through longer term policies and combinations of policies. With crime for instance improvements there tend to be a secondary effect of improvements basically anywhere.
Is something just disregarded when it enters into such a domain?

[Sheilbh]

This is not the key to the policy IMO, it's an entertaining thought experiment.  At no point in history have people broken out in rebellion over the level of food stamps or housing vouchers.  It's not a practical concern.

But that's just looking at welfare as it is delivered in highly developed, rich, bureaucratic 20th century democracies with functioning markets (which we're at the top/bottom of as end consumer) and describing that's what "welfare" is. It's very, very presentist. And it's not - it's just the welfare that those societies will produce.

Welfare in the vast majority of the world now isn't food stamps or housing vouchers. It's subsidised staple goods (food, fuel etc) often delivered through price controls and subsidies as well as to an extent control of markets and sometimes outright government controlling supplies. That is also the historic means of delivering welfare - and it's the cause of innumerable riots, rebellions and revolutions.

[Admiral Yi]

But you recognise that we live in a complex world right?
That rarely is there such a neat situation of change one factor = instant short term results. Most serious change comes through longer term policies and combinations of policies. With crime for instance improvements there tend to be a secondary effect of improvements basically anywhere.
Is something just disregarded when it enters into such a domain?

Great.  Run your longer term combination of policies and come back to me when you have results.

[Valmy]

Eh, stable yes, free no.  Welfare doesn't make a person free, unless you're including magic words like freedom from want and freedom from hunger.

This is not the key to the policy IMO, it's an entertaining thought experiment.  At no point in history have people broken out in rebellion over the level of food stamps or housing vouchers.  It's not a practical concern.

Hard disagree. They do break out in rebellion. Populist rebellion and we get nutters in charge to fuck over the country.

And I think using the threat of starvation and homelessness to compel people to do certain things does limit their freedom. That and by design most economies do not want everybody employed at the same time so you can guarantee at least somebody is going to be out there starving and homeless and that is very bad for everyone.

[Valmy]

The only alternative to a system of welfare of some kind is just militarize society to make people be satisfied with homelessness and starvation...I am not really comfortable with that.

[Admiral Yi]

Welfare in the vast majority of the world now isn't food stamps or housing vouchers. It's subsidised staple goods (food, fuel etc) often delivered through price controls and subsidies as well as to an extent control of markets and sometimes outright government controlling supplies. That is also the historic means of delivering welfare - and it's the cause of innumerable riots, rebellions and revolutions.

Fair enough.  You as a third world dictator have my blessing to keep handing out free pita bread.  As long as I don't have to pick up the tab.

[Admiral Yi]

The only alternative to a system of welfare of some kind is just militarize society to make people be satisfied with homelessness and starvation...I am not really comfortable with that.

Incidentally that is my personal philosophy of welfare, enough for subsistence.

[Admiral Yi]

Hard disagree. They do break out in rebellion. Populist rebellion and we get nutters in charge to fuck over the country.

Which rebellion or rebellions are you thinking of?

[Valmy]

Hard disagree. They do break out in rebellion. Populist rebellion and we get nutters in charge to fuck over the country.

Which rebellion or rebellions are you thinking of?

Obviously the Great Depression, and its political impacts, is a good example.

But even 2016, and the fallout from the 2008 crisis in general, had a lot about the government not doing more for poor communities, especially small towns and rural areas. That is certainly what ultimately had me questioning most of my previously held beliefs on social policy.

[Valmy]

The only alternative to a system of welfare of some kind is just militarize society to make people be satisfied with homelessness and starvation...I am not really comfortable with that.

Incidentally that is my personal philosophy of welfare, enough for subsistence.

Oh you are? Ok I think we are more aligned than I think.

[Admiral Yi]

Obviously the Great Depression, and its political impacts, is a good example.

Of a rebellion?  Are you talking about Hitler's takeover?