Elon Musk: Always A Douche

[viper37]

So what you're all saying is because the cause is part of a more global far right movement seeking to discriminate individuals who falls out of societal norms, we should absolutely do nothing and pretend there is no problem at all as it is the only way to fight this real injustice the Republicans are committing?

It's kind of like climate change, isn't it?  Since there are extremists who recommends who do not eat meat at all, or that we should stop reproducing, we should absolutely deny there's such a thing as climate change/global warming because the cause is defended by far left extremists?

[grumbler]

See, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.  Integrism and fanatism are simple mindsets.  Nothing to worry about.  Want to force you wife to walk 2 paces behind you, covered from head to toe in black garment during a hot summer day?  Freedom of religion.  Want to sacrifice a goat in your backyard?  Freedom of religion.  Want biological men to decide that they should compete with female athletes by pretending they are now women?  Sure, let's do it!  It means nothing after all, it's just a simple trophy.  Can't get a job as a university teacher?  Use some pills to darken your skin and pretend to black.  No outcry, it'll be the same.  Or invent yourself some First Nations roots.  It worked for some.

Thanks for the near-complete presentation of strawman arguments, I can use this in my classes as an example of easy-to-recognize bullshit before we work up to bullshit that isn't moronic.

[Jacob]

Why do we have to do anything with it?  If we continue to disagree with some of their ideas, and at times those positions are the same or close to the far right's, so what?

Well, if you're interested in winning you may want to consider ways to move away from circular execution squads within your own side. And while the people on the other side of the circle surely are to blame, you primarily have control over where you're aiming and where you source your ammunition.

[Razgovory]

I have no idea what viper is even talking about.  I don't think Angela Davis is pretending to be black or sacrificing goats.

[crazy canuck]

I disgree. I think talking about issues is absolutely necessary BECAUSE the right will own them otherwise. Has pretending CRT is a non-issue (and it is, in any rational sense, a non-issue) helped keep the right from taking over school boards across the country?

I don't think sticking our heads in the sand will work. Or at least it hasn't worked.

I think we should win the battle, and that means being willing to have open and honest discussion about the merits, and being willing to actually contest the right wing bullshit.

You cannot do that if every time you talk about it you get attacked from the right (of course) but ALSO immediately attacked from the left as a bigot or "middle aged white bro" for not embracing every absurd take on it that some twitter dumbass or journalist puts forth.

And of course the right is going to latch onto the more absurd things. They are assholes, they aren't stupid. If the left spouts off about some topic that is 98% perfectly reasonable, of course they are going to latch onto the 2% and attack the entirety on that basis. Both sides do that, all the time.

And I think if you want to not let the right wing propaganda universe "build out the foundation of the debate" don't you have to propose your own foundation? Doesn't that demand a discussion, and an effort within the left to demand that the foundation NOT be defined by our own silly squad? Because if we don't, we know how that works. The loudest and most extreme define the terms.

I don't want the left to go the route of the right. And I think it is a real danger if the adults aren't willing to stand up and make the sane argument. I think this is exactly what happened in the GOP over the last several decades of my own life. People ignored the crazies, then woke up one day and they were running the show.

Well, you - and I do mean you - could start by not copying the language of the right when you attack the left - or at least those you perceive as far left.

"Woke" is now almost exclusively used by those who seek to deride it, those who chafe at the activism from which it sprang. Opponents to the idea are seeking to render it toxic. They use it to stand in for change itself, for evolution, for an accurate assessment of history and society that makes them uncomfortable and deflates their hagiographic view of American history.

And you regularly use it in this way, which is a perfect example of what Otto is talking about.

It might be that Otto and I view this the same way because we are of a certain age and we can see the pernicious effect the internet has had on how discussion has changed over time.  But I doubt we are the only ones who see the effects.

[The Minsky Moment]

See, there's absolutely nothing to worry about.

Based on the story you quoted, you are correct - there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

A couple thousand people were interested in seeing Angela Davis.  10 nutters wrote a letter.  That Angela Davis completely ignored.

It's zero, wrapped in a void, inside a nothingbuger, hold the lettuce, tomato, and cheese.

[Barrister]

Well, you - and I do mean you - could start by not copying the language of the right when you attack the left - or at least those you perceive as far left.

You get that this is the very definition of an ad hominem attack, right?

You're not engaging with what Berkut said - just that what he is saying [copies] the language of the right".

Ah heck, who am I kidding.  Of course you don't realize that.  Either that or you realize it and don't care.

[Eddie Teach]

If he hasn't read your signature already, he's probably not interested.

[grumbler]

Well, you - and I do mean you - could start by not copying the language of the right when you attack the left - or at least those you perceive as far left.

You get that this is the very definition of an ad hominem attack, right?

You're not engaging with what Berkut said - just that what he is saying [copies] the language of the right".

Ah heck, who am I kidding.  Of course you don't realize that.  Either that or you realize it and don't care.

Or he realizes it, cares, but cannot stop compulsively doing it.  CC's frothing posts are just that; froth.  He couldn't possibly survive in the real world if he was personally as nasty and dense as he acts here.

[Berkut]

I disgree. I think talking about issues is absolutely necessary BECAUSE the right will own them otherwise. Has pretending CRT is a non-issue (and it is, in any rational sense, a non-issue) helped keep the right from taking over school boards across the country?

I don't think sticking our heads in the sand will work. Or at least it hasn't worked.

I think we should win the battle, and that means being willing to have open and honest discussion about the merits, and being willing to actually contest the right wing bullshit.

You cannot do that if every time you talk about it you get attacked from the right (of course) but ALSO immediately attacked from the left as a bigot or "middle aged white bro" for not embracing every absurd take on it that some twitter dumbass or journalist puts forth.

And of course the right is going to latch onto the more absurd things. They are assholes, they aren't stupid. If the left spouts off about some topic that is 98% perfectly reasonable, of course they are going to latch onto the 2% and attack the entirety on that basis. Both sides do that, all the time.

And I think if you want to not let the right wing propaganda universe "build out the foundation of the debate" don't you have to propose your own foundation? Doesn't that demand a discussion, and an effort within the left to demand that the foundation NOT be defined by our own silly squad? Because if we don't, we know how that works. The loudest and most extreme define the terms.

I don't want the left to go the route of the right. And I think it is a real danger if the adults aren't willing to stand up and make the sane argument. I think this is exactly what happened in the GOP over the last several decades of my own life. People ignored the crazies, then woke up one day and they were running the show.

Well, you - and I do mean you - could start by not copying the language of the right when you attack the left - or at least those you perceive as far left.

I don't, so I don't see any reason to respond to yet another ad hom.

[crazy canuck]

Well, you - and I do mean you - could start by not copying the language of the right when you attack the left - or at least those you perceive as far left.

You get that this is the very definition of an ad hominem attack, right?

You're not engaging with what Berkut said - just that what he is saying [copies] the language of the right".

Ah heck, who am I kidding.  Of course you don't realize that.  Either that or you realize it and don't care.

Have you not been reading Berkut's posts and his use of the word "woke"?  Its a lot like how Pollivre is starting all his campaign rallies where is first line is to attack those who are woke.  Which is of course simply copying the Fox talking points.

[crazy canuck]

I don't, so I don't see any reason to respond to yet another ad hom.

If I was commenting on who you are rather than what you do, that would be an ad hom. But I am expressly calling you out on what you do.  That is called a fact.

[viper37]

I have no idea what viper is even talking about.  I don't think Angela Davis is pretending to be black or sacrificing goats.

It's ok Raz, I know you're fine with this concept too.  As long as it's from the left, intolerance is a-ok.

[viper37]

Yes, we're all crazy Fox News viewers.  There is zero problem with wokism in our society.  No university teacher has ever been disciplined for discussing historical and contemporary subjects, no journalist has ever been suspended for reading a book's title, no one ever has been accused of being "too white" for something.  It's all our collective imagination, derived of watching too much of Fox News, even when we don't subscribe to this particular channel.

[Barrister]

Yes, we're all crazy Fox News viewers.  There is zero problem with wokism in our society.  No university teacher has ever been disciplined for discussing historical and contemporary subjects, no journalist has ever been suspended for reading a book's title, no one ever has been accused of being "too white" for something.  It's all our collective imagination, derived of watching too much of Fox News, even when we don't subscribe to this particular channel.

It's not that those things don't happen - they do.  But if you mention them you're secretly helping the political right, so you need to ignore these things.