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Libertarians, Trump and the Alt-Right.

Started by Razgovory, September 20, 2017, 10:27:49 PM

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grumbler

The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

DGuller

Quote from: grumbler on September 23, 2017, 09:48:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 23, 2017, 06:06:06 PM
I don't know if you're playing dumb or method acting it, but you are exceedingly tiresome either way.

:lmfao:  You, on the other hand, are never tiresome.  Moronic, yes, but I enjoy every stupid post you make as you avoid every argument I make.  Please keep dancing, little bear.
If you think you're making arguments that I'm not addressing, then you're not communicating them very effectively.  I'm just seeing a notoriously abrasive old man calling me a moron with poor reading comprehension with no apparent reason for it.  Doesn't really have a bite to it, and the forced  :lmfao: emoticons probably don't have the effect you think they have.

It could be that I'm not seeing that reason precisely because I'm a moron with no reading comprehension, but then how do you get external validation for making such awesome arguments?  From the imaginary other people that understand what you're getting at, informing you telepathically?  Tailor your arguments so that a moron like me could understand them, if they're the good shit that you think they are, they deserve being comprehended properly.

Berkut

This entire argument by Raz and DG is basically a ad-hom on libertarianism. It isn't any kind of attempt to understand their position, and make arguments against it - it is just an attempt to say the equivalent of "libertarians are Nazis, and we all know how bad those Nazi's are!".

When someone tries to point out what the term actually means to people who actually use it, you get this claim that it is no meaningless it doesn't matter. I disagree - it most certainly does matter when it comes to actual discussion about actual policies, and people who would otherwise fit the supposed definition of valuing liberty for its own sake will argue that the state has the right to force people to be married, or the state should deport human beings, or trample on the rights of travelers, or even mandate what kind of insurance people must have.

Raz and DG are desperate for the alt-right to own libertarianism because they have an irrational hatred of the term, and everyone hates the alt right, so of course libertarians must be alt right. It's like their claim that libertarians are racists. It doesn't even fucking make any sense from the standpoint of what the word means. But that isn't important to them, people on a crusade don't actually are about the facts or reason.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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The Brain

I've never been on a crusade. I suck at shuffleboard.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Eddie Teach

Quote from: The Brain on September 24, 2017, 01:54:11 AM
I've never been on a crusade. I suck at shuffleboard.

That's ok, they have a pool and dance lessons too.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

DGuller

Quote from: Berkut on September 24, 2017, 01:37:07 AM
Raz and DG are desperate for the alt-right to own libertarianism because they have an irrational hatred of the term, and everyone hates the alt right, so of course libertarians must be alt right.
Don't try to read my mind.  You've never been any good at it.
QuoteIt's like their claim that libertarians are racists. It doesn't even fucking make any sense from the standpoint of what the word means.
No true libertarian would be racist.
Quote
But that isn't important to them, people on a crusade don't actually are about the facts or reason.
Yes, yes, we know, you're the paragon of reason, we got it after the first 1000 times.  Go easy on the rest of us, when something comes so naturally to you, it's very hard to empathize how hard it is for less gifted people.

garbon

So are there any true libertarians in politics today?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Berkut

Quote from: garbon on September 24, 2017, 03:00:42 AM
So are there any true libertarians in politics today?

I don't think it is a label in that fashion. It isn't a political position, it is a weight given to a particular competing consideration.

And no, I  don't think there are any in politics today who give it anything like the weight it deserves. Which is why we have the Patriot Act, and the idea of deporting Dreamers, and such.

To the extent that there are those who DO give it anything like the weight it deserves, they are certainly all on the modern left, not the right, IMO.
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grumbler

Quote from: DGuller on September 23, 2017, 11:56:48 PM
If you think you're making arguments that I'm not addressing, then you're not communicating them very effectively.

I am not really trying to communicate them to you.  If I dumbed them down enough for you to understand, they'd be boring to the rest of the board.  It's fine with me that you cannt grasp my argument; that fact makes your non sequiturs all the more hilarious.

QuoteI'm just seeing a notoriously abrasive old man calling me a moron with poor reading comprehension with no apparent reason for it.  Doesn't really have a bite to it, and the forced  :lmfao: emoticons probably don't have the effect you think they have.

Ah, the ad hom concession.  I knew it was coming, but wasn't sure when.  I won't say thanks for playing, but I will say thanks for flailing about in an attempt to play.

The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: garbon on September 24, 2017, 03:00:42 AM
So are there any true libertarians in politics today?

I think that true libertarians would have a hard time raising the money to be successful in modern politics.  If you oppose big government, big business, and big church, you aren't left with many wealthy sponsors.  I'd say John McCain is 2/3 libertarian but he's too cosy with business to be a real libertarian.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Eddie Teach

Quote from: grumbler on September 24, 2017, 05:38:18 PM
Quote from: DGuller on September 23, 2017, 11:56:48 PM
If you think you're making arguments that I'm not addressing, then you're not communicating them very effectively.

I am not really trying to communicate them to you.  If I dumbed them down enough for you to understand, they'd be boring to the rest of the board.  It's fine with me that you cannt grasp my argument; that fact makes your non sequiturs all the more hilarious.

They're already boring to onlookers so you might as well let your interlocutor know what you're saying.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

grumbler

Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 24, 2017, 06:01:01 PM
They're already boring to onlookers so you might as well let your interlocutor know what you're saying.

I did.  I said that arguments by assertion are not persuasive.  He responded that all tribes are not identical.  I'm not sure how you break through so profound a disinterest in reading comprehension.  Maybe baby words?  But I just cannot be bothered.  He is funnier flailing anyway.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

I'm trying to figure out how I can launch an Ad hominem attack on libertarianism.  I'm also a bit perplexed as to what "big church" is and why Libertarians should be opposed to it.  If it's not state action, what does it have to do with libertarian?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

Quote from: Razgovory on September 24, 2017, 06:35:05 PM
I'm also a bit perplexed as to what "big church" is

It's one of life's great mysteries, like the alt-light.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

dps

Quote from: grumbler on September 24, 2017, 05:41:03 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 24, 2017, 03:00:42 AM
So are there any true libertarians in politics today?

I think that true libertarians would have a hard time raising the money to be successful in modern politics. 

There are probably some successful libertarian in politics at the state level.