The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Valmy]

I don't know anything of the local situation there. But is there a reason the catalan nationalists may be hostile to this area that wants to remain part of Spain doing so?

I mean they are already trying to secede without a majority of popular support in any election. What people in one area thinks clearly does not matter much to them. I am sure they could come up with all kinds of reasons not to have a certain area be under the thrall of the "Spanish State" that is trying to do horrible things to them.

I don't think we can compare a peaceful secession in the EU to being quite the same thing as historic European border rehashes.

Yeah no problems have ever come between two countries in the EU that have border issues. Do all English people have such a profound ignorance of what has been going on in Ireland the past 50 years?

Besides I have no doubt that Catalonia will eventually be left out of and hate the EU if they become independent.

[Barrister]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?

Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.

There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.

You said Monaco was too small to become a country, yet you seem to have no problem with a prospective country a quarter the population.

My argument is that yes, the slope is a tad slippery.

I thought the question was whether Val d'Aran should be allowed to stay in Spain as part of a theoretical Catalan independence, not whether it should be independent.

Is there some slip in the slope of independence?  Sure there is.  If Spain borders aren't inviolable, then neither are Catalonia's.  But it's not impossible to figure out either.    I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?

[Malthus]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. That this small area can stop a catalan secession?

Googling this area it seems quite an easy one to solve, it's on the border of catalonia and giving border areas a choice which side of the new border they want to be on is sensible.

There will of course be less simple examples in secessions. Isolated but large areas that want to remain part of the source nation and not the new nation. It could be tough to work things out there, even within the EU. But self determination should overall go as far as sensibly possible.

You said Monaco was too small to become a country, yet you seem to have no problem with a prospective country a quarter the population.

My argument is that yes, the slope is a tad slippery.

I thought the question was whether Val d'Aran should be allowed to stay in Spain as part of a theoretical Catalan independence, not whether it should be independent.

Is there some slip in the slope of independence?  Sure there is.  If Spain borders aren't inviolable, then neither are Catalonia's.  But it's not impossible to figure out either.    I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?

Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. 

[Valmy]

I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?

No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. There were two wars about it. After lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and civil war northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.

Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore. Even Hitler didn't re-annex it since he was trying to keep Denmark somewhat friendly during its occupation.

[Barrister]

Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. 

Lord Palmerston.

But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view.  When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve.  They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).

[Barrister]

I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?

No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. The question is still not really resolved, but after lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and Civil War northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.

Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore.

WWI was indeed a bloody war, but you might want to check your history.  Denmark was not a combatant in that war, and the war can hardly be said to have been fought over the Danish-German border.

[Valmy]

Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. 

Lord Palmerston.

But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view.  When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve.  They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).

Not really, that referendum was only really possible because Germany lost World War I and even then as you point out the territory had to be divided.

[Valmy]

I mean they ultimately figured out Schleswig-Holstein by holding some referendums, didn't they?

No they did so via a bloody war. The problems with Schleswig Holstein was that the two provinces had sworn they would never be divided but Denmark and Germany really wanted them to be divided. The question is still not really resolved, but after lots of Danes died fighting in World War I and Germany collapsed into revolution and Civil War northern Schleswig joined Denmark after World War I after a referendum that was forced upon the province by the victorious allies.

Not sure if such a disastrous outcome is really "figured out" but fortunately after World War II neither Denmark nor Germany really care about it much anymore.

WWI was indeed a bloody war, but you might want to check your history.  Denmark was not a combatant in that war, and the war can hardly be said to have been fought over the Danish-German border.

You might want to check your history. There were two Schleswig-Holstein Wars and many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein.

It just so happened that after awhile loyalty to the region and unity of Schleswig-Holstein lost out to German/Danish nationalism but it was World War I that caused that really.

And, as you say, the ancient 800 year old Schleswig province had to be partitioned. That was pretty messy and certainy what nobody in that region wanted originally.

[dps]

many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein

Well, I'm sure that some Danes died fighting in the German Army in WWI, but I don't know the numbers or how what would be required to call that number "many", your post is somewhat disingenuous.  People would normally take "many Danes died fighting in WWI" to mean that the Danish military during the war, not that Danes died fighting in other nation's militaries.  Depending on how many casualties it would take to be classified as "many" you could probably say that many Danes died fighting in the US Army in WWI as well.

And shame on you for ignoring the Danes that died fighting in the German Navy in WWI.   

[Valmy]

many Danes died fighting in the German Army in World War I as they lived in Schleswig Holstein

Well, I'm sure that some Danes died fighting in the German Army in WWI, but I don't know the numbers or how what would be required to call that number "many", your post is somewhat disingenuous.  People would normally take "many Danes died fighting in WWI" to mean that the Danish military during the war, not that Danes died fighting in other nation's militaries.  Depending on how many casualties it would take to be classified as "many" you could probably say that many Danes died fighting in the US Army in WWI as well.

And shame on you for ignoring the Danes that died fighting in the German Navy in WWI.   

I brought it up because it was a major factor in the referendum in the Schlesswig area after WWI, that combined with the political disaster that had come to the German Empire following the defeat was what ultimately led to the Danish speaking areas to decide to leave Schlesswig-Holstein. (though if you look at the results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Schleswig_plebiscites lots of them still wanted to keep the province united even after all that had happened)

I didn't feel like looking up the actual number of Danes who were killed so I just said "many" and the specific number doesn't matter that much, does it?

Ok from what I can find about 25,000 Danes from Schlesswig-Holstein served in the Imperial Germany Army in World War I and roughly a third were killed. There you go.

[Malthus]

Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. 

Lord Palmerston.

My bad - got my 19th century political grandees confused. 

But the thing is it was only complicated from a 19th-century rules of inheritance point of view.  When it came to the 20th century it was comparitively easy to solve.  They held referendums, and the majority danish-speaking bits of Scheswig voted to join Denmark, while the majority german-speaking bits voted to stay within Germany (Holstein was never seriously in doubt).

I suspect it was only comparatively easy to solve because the great powers, particularly Germany, were clobbered in WW1, and everyone was horrified by resorting to war. Before that, there had been lots of violence and unhappiness over it.

The affair illustrates the unfortunate truth about separatist movements: there is usually someone who will be violently opposed to any re-division of territory, others who want to meddle for their own ends, and it is only under really unusual circumstances (in that case, the aftermath of a ruinous war; in say the Canadian case, and absence of outside meddlers and a strong commitment to democracy and the rule of law) that could ever allow such a process to be "comparatively easy".

The Canadian case illustrates another unfortunate (or fortunate) truth: that the same circumstances that make such a division "comparatively easy" (lack of outside meddlers, strong commitment to democracy and rule of law) undercut any possible reason for division - which is why, despite all the sad historical incidents of oppression Viper can dig up (  ), Quebec separatism has so far failed.

[Barrister]

Bismarck once said that only three people ever understood the Schleswig-Holstein crisis - but the first forgot, the second went insane, and the third was himself. 

Lord Palmerston.

Sometimes you people really fucking disappoint me.

This was a perfect set-up, yet not a single person replied with "Pitt The Elder".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoDKh1EAZjI

Languish truly is dying.

[Josquius]

I said it can join Spain, not be a country. I don't see this sort of thing being as much of a problem as new monacos becoming independent. Really I'd say its advisable in case of secessions to give border areas a choice.
For a similar example in the UK there are those in Berwick who talk of joining Scotland, particularly in case of independence

[Valmy]

I said it can join Spain, not be a country. I don't see this sort of thing being as much of a problem as new monacos becoming independent. Really I'd say its advisable in case of secessions to give border areas a choice.
For a similar example in the UK there are those in Berwick who talk of joining Scotland, particularly in case of independence

What about non-border areas? Is choice only for small areas in priviledged geographic locations? Are your rights to self-determination defined by arbitrary geographic location?

[Eddie Teach]

Languish truly is dying.

Languish never was that big on The Simpsons.