The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[OttoVonBismarck]

In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.

[The Brain]

In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed.

[dps]

Interestingly, I just found out that there is something called the Vienna Convention on Succession, which apparently tries to lay out rules for succession.  But there's only a few states that are parties to it--basically Brazil, Ukraine, a few African nations, former parts of Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, and some dots on the map.

[viper37]

In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.

yes, and the net result is you now have a fracturer country and an increasingly authoritarian country thanks to your former Secessionist brethren who have now won the war.

[viper37]

I strongly believe secession is not compatible with modern, Western democratic ideals.

I believe the same thing about forcing people to remain in a country where they feel disrespected by the central authority.

But it's ok, you believe South Sudan belong with North Sudan, no matter how many dead people there are, so, everything's fine, just like in Sebrenica

You're basically Donald Trump and the people who support him. "We refuse to associate with anyone we disagree with." This is the mentality that is destroying the West.

No, really not.

I just believe that at some point, there are irreconciable differences.  When maintaining a partnership means one side must erase itself to please the other, things aren't working out and it's best for both that they split their union.

You believe killing 1 in 30 people of your countrymen to preserve a Union is an acceptable loss and you wish for others to enforce your position.  It's ok, we just disagree on the value of human life.

[Eddie Teach]

In America we stood by our convictions and didn't allow small minded secessionists to destroy our country. We were willing to fight and die for it, and we prevailed. There is no such backbone to be found in Western countries these days.

yes, and the net result is you now have a fracturer country and an increasingly authoritarian country thanks to your former Secessionist brethren who have now won the war.

[dps]

Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).

[Razgovory]

Wait, the Confederates started the war.

[Valmy]

Wait, the Confederates started the war.

Yes well but they did it for nationalism. By not immediately capitulating the Union showed itself to be the real aggressor.

You believe killing 1 in 30 people of your countrymen to preserve a Union is an acceptable loss and you wish for others to enforce your position.  It's ok, we just disagree on the value of human life.

I believe protecting the rights and dignity of individuals against the tyranny of a majority is worth that, yes.

[viper37]

Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation

Brazil did not need a civil war to end slavery based on the colour of the skin, afaik.  And blacks weren't prevented from voting in many places for close to a century after that.

(if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).

Good one.  But I generally frown upon the use of force against the free exercise of democracy.
People want to leave, so be it. Let them pack and leave the Union.

The UK sat down with Scotland to negotiate the terms of a referendum.  The UK than sat down with the EU to negotiate the term of its leave.

Maybe France and Germany should have just invaded the UK instead?  That would have been far more productive.

[viper37]

I believe protecting the rights and dignity of individuals against the tyranny of a majority is worth that, yes.

And the Jim Crow laws fit right in there?  Along with the lynchings?  I'm a little bit fuzzy about the Federal intervention in "State's rights" there, would you mind to enlighten me, please?

Look, the North could have sat with the South and negotiated a secession.  That wasn't the way of thinking anywhere back then, but they could have done it anyway.  Instead, they mobilized the army, ready for an invasion of the South, prompted more States to secede, and the Southerners, dumb fuck as they were, marched right into the trap and fired on Fort Sumter giving Lincoln a pretext to try and invade the South to bring them back into the Union as quickly as possible.  If the war had truly been fought, right from the beginning to free the slaves and preserve human dignity, Lincoln would have announced it right from the start, not use some pretext about preserving the Union.

This does not change the fact that the South fought to preserve slavery, but the North had to wait until a really significant victory to emancipate the slaves so as to rally public opinion behind the cause, when victory was nearly a certainty in public opinion.  Until then, most Northerners likely felt like Otto that it was totally justified to invade the South to bring back the seceding States into the Union and not to free some negroes.

[Razgovory]

Viper, just stop.  Stop while you are ahead.  I know it doesn't look like you are ahead but everything you just posted sent you back further and further.  You are rehashing modern day pro-confederate talking and... Actually I have no idea why are you doing that.  Pretty much anyone here can tear those arguments in to shreds including people who have absolutely no knowledge of American history. 

[The Brain]

Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?).

Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?

[dps]

Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?

Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?

They didn't secede to preserve slavery.  They seceded to avoid paying taxes.  I don't much like taxes so I'm OK with that.

OK, that's an extreme oversimplification, but whatever. 

[The Brain]

Yeah, 'cause clearly allowing the southern part of the country to found a state based on holding millions of people in chattel slavery based on the color of their skin shows more concern for the value of human life than using the military to defend the integrity of the nation (if a military isn't meant to preserve the territorial integrity and sovereignty of a nation, what the heck is it for?

Do you wish that the chattel slave owners of 1776 had failed in their secession?

They didn't secede to preserve slavery.  They seceded to avoid paying taxes.  I don't much like taxes so I'm OK with that.

OK, that's an extreme oversimplification, but whatever.

30 extra years of slavery for millions of people = WORTH IT CAUSE TAXES SUCXX0RS

NB: I'm mostly just playing around. Mostly.