The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[viper37]

Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.

Yeah, exactly like in a marriage.  A woman should never be allowed to break the couple, it should be consented by both parties.  That's the way to do things, for any split.  Like, the US, they did ask Britain before breaking up the empire and invading the other colonies.

[chipwich]

If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?

You can't have sovereignty, or rule of law, or human right if a subfaction can decide to nullify law and form a new sovereign entity.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.

Yeah, exactly like in a marriage.  A woman should never be allowed to break the couple, it should be consented by both parties.  That's the way to do things, for any split.  Like, the US, they did ask Britain before breaking up the empire and invading the other colonies.

I'm not saying you can't declare civil war—our CSA tried. But you have to be able to win.

[The Minsky Moment]

The Federal government will never negotiate in good faith.

Only one way to find out.

[Barrister]

If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?

You can't have sovereignty, or rule of law, or human right if a subfaction can decide to nullify law and form a new sovereign entity.

Why?  There's been lots of examples of countries getting their independence.

[alfred russel]

BB hates the US pledge of allegiance. "indivisible"

[Valmy]

If they vote "No", then the issue us over.

If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?

Well this is clearly not true, a close vote will only make the situation worse. And it would almost certainly be close. Not everywhere has the same population dynamics as Quebec.

Besides what happens if part of Catalonia has a independence majority and the other part has a stay majority...is one of those political entities going to not have "Self-determination" in this case?

[Barrister]

If they vote "No", then the issue us over.

If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?

Well this is clearly not true, a close vote will only make the situation worse.

Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%.  That was about as close as they come.

There's never been another referendum.

Brexit was quite close as well.  Brexit is happening.  A majority is a majority

[merithyn]

So.... is this a good time to look for a house in Barcelona.... or a bad time?

[The Minsky Moment]

Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%.  That was about as close as they come.

There's never been another referendum.

Brexit was quite close as well.  Brexit is happening.  A majority is a majority

And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit.  A majority only works when it works for your side.

Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.

[Barrister]

And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit.  A majority only works when it works for your side.

Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.

That's why what I'm advocating for isn't the Catalan's just running their own referendum (which they tried to do), but one that would be sanctioned by Madrid, with a clear question, a mutually agreed-to date, and fair opportunity for both Yes and No sides to campaign.  And that would be one time only (or at least once in a generation only).

[Iormlund]

So.... is this a good time to look for a house in Barcelona.... or a bad time?

As long as you're willing to grossly overpay for what you'll get it's as good a time as any.

[Valmy]

Quebec 1995 referendum the "No" side won 50.58% to 49.42%.  That was about as close as they come.

There's never been another referendum.

Yes...but only because the independence movement knew time was against them and they were unlikely to win another referendum, 1995 was their last chance. That dynamic might not exist in Catalonia.

If Quebec even thought for a minute the support for independence was rising again they would try again.

[Iormlund]

And yet The Tories refused to consider a second referendum to reconsider Brexit.  A majority only works when it works for your side.

Not all majorities are equal - it's a lot easier to get assemble a majority if you get multiple attempts, can pick your timing and can deny the right to the opposition to schedule their own counter-referendum.

That's why what I'm advocating for isn't the Catalan's just running their own referendum (which they tried to do), but one that would be sanctioned by Madrid, with a clear question, a mutually agreed-to date, and fair opportunity for both Yes and No sides to campaign.  And that would be one time only (or at least once in a generation only).

None of that makes any sense.

You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...

[Valmy]

You are delusional if you think a No in yet another referendum would give fanatics pause. It took them just 3 years, not exactly a generation, to repeat the last failed attempt.
There has been absolutely no impediment for separatist propaganda since Franco died. Separatists directly control police, media and education. Nothing stopping their message of hate. Which is kind of why we find ourselves here in the first place.
As for "Madrid", the central government cannot sanction unconstitutional acts. You'd think a lawyer would understand the concept...

Well I guess I should also throw out there, BB, that people in Quebec are just more reasonable and respect rule of law and such than most nationalists.