The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Barrister]

They've never had the opportunity to hold a definitive vote on the subject.

They do it every election. The Separatist parties have never won a majority of the votes.

Elections are tricky, and never correspond precisely with people stances on the issues.

The only way to settle the issue of independence, at least for a generation or more, is to hold a referendum with a clear question.


And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter.  In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements.  Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.

[Valmy]

And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter.  In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements.  Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.

So you would support a majority declaring independence to preserve the enslavement of a minority? That is a human right? Rights for 50.00001%, none for 49.999999%. I mean what a bankrupt and absurd notion of what rights are.

Anyway the UN Charter established those principles in the context of colonialism where individual rights were at stake, not this kind of first world nonsense.

[Iormlund]

...UN Charter...

The UN Charter also says fundamental freedoms should be protected against discrimination. So which is it? Am I allowed or not to have a vote on my future because I don't speak Catalan? What about Valencians? Can they vote then?

And who decides what constitutes "peoples" that have access to self-determination? Catalans of course? What about ... Aranese? What about those who live in Barcelona? Can they have their own state? What about Badalona? Can Salou ascend to its rightful place as Zaragoza's beach? We'd need a corridor of some sort though...

[Valmy]

We'd need a corridor of some sort though...

Make a 20 mile long tunnel.

[Barrister]

And Valmy, when you become President of the World, what you do and do not recognize will matter.  In the here and now, the right to self-determination is recognized in the UN Charter and many other international agreements.  Many, many countries have gained independence after a referendum.

So you would support a majority declaring independence to preserve the enslavement of a minority? That is a human right? Rights for 50.00001%, none for 49.999999%. I mean what a bankrupt and absurd notion of what rights are.

Anyway the UN Charter established those principles in the context of colonialism where individual rights were at stake, not this kind of first world nonsense.

US Civil war - well first of all it's not like they held a referendum in the first place.

Second of all they wouldn't have given blacks the vote anyways.

Third of all given the evils of slavery other countries may well have been justified in invading the CSA anyways to abolish the practice.  The mid 19th century British had no compunction about meddling in other countries to end slavery.

And no, the UN wasn't in the context of colonialism.  It was in the context of the continuation of the League of Nations which saw the independence of a great many nations in Europe.  What do you have against the independence of Poland Valmy!

[Barrister]

...UN Charter...

The UN Charter also says fundamental freedoms should be protected against discrimination. So which is it? Am I allowed or not to have a vote on my future because I don't speak Catalan? What about Valencians? Can they vote then?

And who decides what constitutes "peoples" that have access to self-determination? Catalans of course? What about ... Aranese? What about those who live in Barcelona? Can they have their own state? What about Badalona? Can Salou ascend to its rightful place as Zaragoza's beach? We'd need a corridor of some sort though...

It's as if you think these issues have never come up before in any of the dozens of independence votes that have been held around the world!

People are a "nation" when enough of them think of themselves as a nation.  I mean you see fringe independence movements all around the world (*waves at Wexit*), but if they don't have any meaningful support they can be ignored.

All people in any proposed independent state get a vote, whether or not they speak a different language.  Valencians don't see themselves as Catalans (says I after having a Valencian live with us for 10 months) and don't consider themselves as part of Catalonia, so no they don't get to vote.

Can really small regions vote for independence?  Case by case basis.  Countries as small as Singapore or East Timor went independent - in both cases they had significantly different histories and even cultures than the larger country.

[Iormlund]

It's as if you think these issues have never come up before ...

Quite the contrary. I've lived this shit for 40 years, watching the same tired arguments excusing anything, from acting like a jerk to lesser beings to downright murdering little kids. I'm immune to such childish arguments by now.

[Barrister]

It's as if you think these issues have never come up before ...

Quite the contrary. I've lived this shit for 40 years, watching the same tired arguments excusing anything, from acting like a jerk to lesser beings to downright murdering little kids. I'm immune to such childish arguments by now.

But that's the thing - for 40 years (or even longer) you haven't allowed Catalans to have a vote.  Spain's answer has always been "nope, not allowed".  Which is why the issue has dragged on for so long!

One time only.  Clear question "Should Catalonia be independent".  Make it clear what that would and would not look like (terms have to be negotiated, no UDI, no automatic accession into the EU).  Have a fair election campaign with both Yes and No given free opportunity.

If they vote "No", then the issue us over.

If they vote "Yes" - well why shouldn't they be allowed to be independent?

[Iormlund]

Oh dear Lord. I don't even know where to begin.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Why should they be allowed to vote to break up a country? It should require the consent of the entire country, the region people live in isn't owned by a simple majority of its inhabitants, it's part of the whole of Spain.

[OttoVonBismarck]

While not a perfect proxy, the U.S. Constitution allows for parts of states to break apart and form new states, it generally requires the consent of the original state, the inhabitants of what will become the new state, and the Congress. That's imo a pretty good model.

[Grey Fox]

I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums.

[Barrister]

I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums.

Hey man - the Clarity Act and the SCC Reference re: Quebec succession have been the last of the land for over 20 years now.

Canada would have a duty to negotiate fairly with Quebec on terms of independence if a majority (SCC says "clear majority") vote for succession on a fairly worded, fairly run referendum campaign.

[Tonitrus]

While not a perfect proxy, the U.S. Constitution allows for parts of states to break apart and form new states, it generally requires the consent of the original state, the inhabitants of what will become the new state, and the Congress. That's imo a pretty good model.

I think of all of the items in the U.S. Constitution that would the least chance of ever happening, it is the successful accomplishment of all of those three benchmarks.  More difficult than a Constitutional amendment I think.

And no, I don't count West Virginia. Maine was closer, but still a rather unique case as well.

[Grey Fox]

I'm just here to be happy that BB is arguing for recognizing independence referendums.

Hey man - the Clarity Act and the SCC Reference re: Quebec succession have been the last of the land for over 20 years now.

Canada would have a duty to negotiate fairly with Quebec on terms of independence if a majority (SCC says "clear majority") vote for succession on a fairly worded, fairly run referendum campaign.

The Federal government will never negotiate in good faith.