The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Tamas]

So I guess, in the view of the Spaniards, the Catalans have no reason to complain, because all is required of them to speak Spanish and they have all the rights like everyone else, right?

[celedhring]

I'm an "ethnic Catalan" and I have no reason to complain.

Learning Catalan in schools? Check - it's the vehicular language for everybody, even.
Using it my relationship with the state? Check - All regional government stuff is preferentially done in Catalan, and pretty much all State stuff is available in all Spanish languages.
Catalan Culture? - Check - the autonomy of the regional government in cultural policy is immense, we can do anything we want. Catalan culture is flourishing right now.
Media? Check - There's plenty of Catalan language media, both private and state-funded.

So, as a Catalan, what else could I want from my state?

The things I have to complain about - corruption, unemployment, funding of education and health care, etc... - are the same things somebody from Valencia, Cádiz or Valladolid could complain about

[Tamas]

I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.

Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.

[celedhring]

I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.

Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.

I'm quite certain we're far better off than pre-WWI Hungarian minorities.

[Iormlund]

I was asking of course because that was the attitude toward the ethnic non-Hungarians within Hungary before 1918, and then has been the attitude toward ethnic Hungarians across the borders after 1920.

Because of that, I find the "naive Spain feeding Catalan dragon" cartoons in bad taste, however silly the notion of independence is.

It's not a Catalan dragon, it's a separatist dragon. Though I admit the difference is easy to miss for a foreigner.

On the left Catalonia's flag. On the right the separatist flag:

[Valmy]

So instead of the new Switzerland they want to be the new Cuba?

[Barrister]

How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?

[Maladict]

How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?

All the cool new countries have stars on their flags. Kosovo, South Sudan, Myanmar...

[garbon]

How can a separatist not use the national flag as their symbol?

All the cool new countries have stars on their flags. Kosovo, South Sudan, Myanmar...

[celedhring]

It's got to the point where the historical Catalan flag is slowly becoming an Unionist symbol. 

[Iormlund]

By the way I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by both Rajoy and the leader of the Socialists today. One might be tempted to say the acted like actual statesmen.   

[Grey Fox]

For a 40 year old movement, they are really badly organized.

[Iormlund]

The old guard retired some time ago. Pujol might have been a crook (probably the biggest crook in the country) but he knew how to run things. His successor, Mas, was not anywhere near his caliber. The movement came to be dominated by the far-left (ERC, CUP). Puigdemont is just trying to stay above water.

[viper37]

They cannot give any more autonomy. The only thing that'd remain to be delegated to Catalonia is control over taxation.

Good place to start.

Ten years ago I would maybe agree. Not anymore. It would make another go at this even more risky.

I'm all for dialogue but there are two things that have to happen:

• Everyone involved in setting this up ends in jail. Dialogue can start with whoever is in charge afterwards.
• The central government must keep control and oversight of any power that can turn against it.

that's not really autonomy.  In fact, it's quite the opposite.

[celedhring]

By the way I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by both Rajoy and the leader of the Socialists today. One might be tempted to say the acted like actual statesmen.   

Trying a delaying action against Rajoy is like challenging prime Mike Tyson to a fist-fight.