The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Iormlund]

Things are heating up. There was a separatist demonstration in Valencia today (Catalonian nationalists claim cores on Valencia and Balear Islands). A far right counter-protest was assembled and ...

[Josquius]

I've always been curious where the Balaerics, Valenica and Aragon fit into Catalan nationalism.

I remain optimistic things won't get too bad. I mean, just look at Turkey. They had a full on attempted military coup....and its mostly business as normal (which in their case means a creep towards democracy rather than what we have in Spain).

[Valmy]

So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?

[celedhring]

So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?

They got beaten by a Spanish far-right group. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain, "España 2000" (founded in 2002, fascists do love living in the past). And by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election".

[Valmy]

So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?

They got beaten by the Spanish far-right. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain (and by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election").

Oh. So there are fanatical Spanish nationalists to?

Your country is complicated.

I heard that the Valencians insist on calling their language 'Valencian' even though it is basically the same at Catalan, which sounded like a nationalist douchebag thing to do. So I figured they must have lots of those.

[Drakken]

France has announced it would not recognize Catalonian UDI - and that it would be excluded from the EU.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41551337

[celedhring]

So wait this was a demonstration to join Catalonia but then they got beaten down by Valencian nationalists?

They got beaten by the Spanish far-right. Valencia holds the HQ of one of the largest far right parties in Spain (and by "largest" read "almost 10,000 votes in the last Spanish general election").

Oh. So there are fanatical Spanish nationalists to?

Your country is complicated.

I heard that the Valencians insist on calling their language 'Valencian' even though it is basically the same at Catalan, which sounded like a nationalist douchebag thing to do. So I figured they must have lots of those.

Of course there are, but they are pitiful. It's ironic how separatists see fascists everywhere in a nation where the actual far-right share of the vote is the smallest of any major European nation.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.

[Iormlund]

I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.

It's nationalism, logic doesn't need to be involved. In this magical world Valencia, the Balear Isles and Roselló (French province bordering Catalonia) are part of the mythical Catalonian Countries.

[Valmy]

Well that explains France's position.

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't really understand the logic of Catalan seperatists living in other parts of Spain to hold independence rallies there.

It's nationalism, logic doesn't need to be involved. In this magical world Valencia, the Balear Isles and Roselló (French province bordering Catalonia) are part of the mythical Catalonian Countries.

They forgot the Catalan speakers in Alghero, Sardinia!

[Crazy_Ivan80]

if UDI happens we'll see how things go. But let's not forget that a number of EU members are themselves the result of UDI's, and not that long ago either. So in the end (again if UDI happens and if the Catalans manage to maintain that independence) pragmatism and realpolitik will take over. It'll be a massive prestige loss for the EU to get stuck with a hole the size of Catalonia inside the Union borders.

And while I know it's very popular to shit on the Catalan nationalists here it might not be uninteresting to figure out how Spain managed to lose the desire of half (if not more) of the Catalan nation to be part of Spain. How did so many become so disappointed with the idea of Post-Franco Spain that independence, and the initial hardships that brings, is preferable? What did the Spanish government(s), in other words, do wrong throughout the years to allow the idea of independence get some real traction? And what capacity does Spain have to -basically- woe all these disappointed/angry/etc Catalans back into the fold?

[The Minsky Moment]

The whole country was usurped from the Neolithic settlers.  It should all go to the Basques.

[Iormlund]

What did the Spanish government(s), in other words, do wrong throughout the years to allow the idea of independence get some real traction?

Transfer control over education and regional state media to nationalists. Those that shout the loudest have been raised in the most tolerant and prosperous era of the country, while those old enough to remember actual oppression are far less radicalized.

And what capacity does Spain have to -basically- woe all these disappointed/angry/etc Catalans back into the fold?

Little to none. I can't see a good ending here.

[Drakken]

if UDI happens we'll see how things go. But let's not forget that a number of EU members are themselves the result of UDI's, and not that long ago either. So in the end (again if UDI happens and if the Catalans manage to maintain that independence) pragmatism and realpolitik will take over. It'll be a massive prestige loss for the EU to get stuck with a hole the size of Catalonia inside the Union borders.

Realpolitik and pragmatism has taken over right now. That's why no one is coming to the aid of Catalonia, because their cause is doomed from the start.

Also, they would have the everlasting enmity from Spain if they went that route, and most probably Spain would leave the EU too.