Saudi Arabia,UAE,Egypt,Bahrain break diplomatic ties with Qatar over 'terrorism'

Started by Syt, June 05, 2017, 02:27:49 AM

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Tonitrus

#120
June 26, 2017, 12:23:12 PM
I tend to agree...SA going after anybody for religious extremism/terrorism is a pretty big eye-roller.

Razgovory

#121
June 26, 2017, 12:54:13 PM
Fair enough.  I wonder if Saudis asked Trump's permission before they did this.  If he gave the go-ahead then he is one stupid SOB.  I guess it would be kinda neat to see what would happen in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt went to war with Iran and Turkey.  At least in a wargamer sort of way.  Probably less neat in the "lots of people would die" sense.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Jacob

#122
June 26, 2017, 01:25:16 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 26, 2017, 12:54:13 PM
Fair enough.  I wonder if Saudis asked Trump's permission before they did this.  If he gave the go-ahead then he is one stupid SOB.  I guess it would be kinda neat to see what would happen in Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt went to war with Iran and Turkey.  At least in a wargamer sort of way.  Probably less neat in the "lots of people would die" sense.

In terms of public signalling, Trump's bit about "look I struck a blow against terrorist funders, and by terrorist funders I mean Qatar! Aren't I great" while visiting the Saudi family certainly seemed like a go ahead. Of course, he may have been too dense to realize that's what he did... or alternately, not cared either way using his standard scheme of suggesting course implying things to cause chaos and claim credit or deny it afterwards depending on how things shake out.

The Minsky Moment

#123
June 26, 2017, 02:05:48 PM
Qatar uses Arabic "qaf" I think.  The pronunciation I learned is weird - kind of like saying a cross between a k and a g, with the letter stuck in the back of the throat.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Razgovory

#124
June 26, 2017, 03:37:33 PM
This looks kinda serious, but I'm not a good judge of these things.  Is this Ultimatum thingy serious?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Jacob

#125
June 26, 2017, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 26, 2017, 03:37:33 PM
This looks kinda serious, but I'm not a good judge of these things.  Is this Ultimatum thingy serious?

I dunno... if Qatar rejects the ultimatum - as it seems they have - the Saud family has to either back down and swallow whatever reputational cost that comes with, or follow through somehow.

Sophie Scholl

#126
June 26, 2017, 06:13:25 PM
Why do I get an Austria to Serbia vibe from their ultimatum list?  I'm definitely behind Qatar in this mess.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

mongers

#127
June 26, 2017, 06:47:11 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2017, 06:13:25 PM
Why do I get an Austria to Serbia vibe from their ultimatum list?  I'm definitely behind Qatar in this mess.

That would imply Trump's White House* is Imperial Germany, Turkey as France, Egypt as the Ottoman empire, Iran as Russia, Pakistan is Italy, India possibly a more distant British empire and nobody playing the role of Woodrow Wilson's America**.





* I think it's important to start making the distinction between that condo vs America and Americans at large, not that that will stop Americans getting killed in the line of duty for Trump's latest folly.


** just for shit and giggles, say what about Putin's Russia. picking up the choice pieces after the region has gone to hell in a handcart?
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Razgovory

#128
June 26, 2017, 07:59:44 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2017, 06:13:25 PM
Why do I get an Austria to Serbia vibe from their ultimatum list?  I'm definitely behind Qatar in this mess.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  It doesn't look like a list of demands that can realistically be followed.  According to Wikipedia the full list includes

QuoteClose al-Jazeera and its affiliate stations
Close the Turkish military base in Qatar, and terminate the Turkish military presence and any joint military cooperation with Turkey inside Qatar.
Reduce ties to Iran. Only trade and commerce with Iran that complies with US and international sanctions will be permitted.[203]
Expel any members of the IRGC and cut off military and intelligence cooperation with Iran.[204]
"Qatar must announce it is severing ties with terrorist, ideological and sectarian organizations including the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Jabhat Fateh al Sham, formerly al Qaeda's branch in Syria" according to one Arab official
Surrender all designated terrorists in Qatar, and stop all means of funding for individuals, groups or organisations that have been designated as terrorists
Qatar should stop interfering in the four countries' domestic and foreign affairs and having contact with their political opposition
Stop granting citizenship to wanted nationals from Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt and Bahrain.
Revoke Qatari citizenship for existing nationals where such citizenship violates those countries' laws.[203]
Payment of reparations for years of alleged wrongs
Monitoring for 10 years[201]
Close news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al-Araby Al-Jadeed and Middle East Eye.
Align itself with the other Gulf and Arab countries militarily, politically, socially and economically, as well as on economic matters, in line with an agreement reached with Saudi Arabia in 2014

This sounds like a demand for total submission.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

mongers

#129
June 26, 2017, 11:25:23 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 26, 2017, 07:59:44 PM
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on June 26, 2017, 06:13:25 PM
Why do I get an Austria to Serbia vibe from their ultimatum list?  I'm definitely behind Qatar in this mess.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.  It doesn't look like a list of demands that can realistically be followed.  According to Wikipedia the full list includes

QuoteClose al-Jazeera and its affiliate stations
Close the Turkish military base in Qatar, and terminate the Turkish military presence and any joint military cooperation with Turkey inside Qatar.
Reduce ties to Iran. Only trade and commerce with Iran that complies with US and international sanctions will be permitted.[203]
Expel any members of the IRGC and cut off military and intelligence cooperation with Iran.[204]
"Qatar must announce it is severing ties with terrorist, ideological and sectarian organizations including the Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, al Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Jabhat Fateh al Sham, formerly al Qaeda's branch in Syria" according to one Arab official
Surrender all designated terrorists in Qatar, and stop all means of funding for individuals, groups or organisations that have been designated as terrorists
Qatar should stop interfering in the four countries' domestic and foreign affairs and having contact with their political opposition
Stop granting citizenship to wanted nationals from Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt and Bahrain.
Revoke Qatari citizenship for existing nationals where such citizenship violates those countries' laws.[203]
Payment of reparations for years of alleged wrongs
Monitoring for 10 years[201]
Close news outlets that Qatar funds, directly and indirectly, including Arabi21, Rassd, Al-Araby Al-Jadeed and Middle East Eye.
Align itself with the other Gulf and Arab countries militarily, politically, socially and economically, as well as on economic matters, in line with an agreement reached with Saudi Arabia in 2014

This sounds like a demand for total submission.

Makes the Austrian demands seem reasonable in comparison.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

DGuller

#130
June 26, 2017, 11:36:02 PM
At least through war, there will be an end to this conflict.

Valmy

#131
June 26, 2017, 11:36:49 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 26, 2017, 11:36:02 PM
At least through war, there will be an end to this conflict.

A war to end all conflicts.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Razgovory

#132
June 27, 2017, 12:23:55 AM
 


I can't be helped but to remember this political cartoon.  I don't think the US ship of state has a pilot anymore.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

CountDeMoney

#133
June 27, 2017, 12:35:44 AM
Donald didn't have the luxury of inheriting an elder statesman to fire.  He's pretty much just done his usual real-estate-empire-as-organized-crime-model thing.

Duque de Bragança

#134
June 27, 2017, 05:43:13 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 26, 2017, 02:05:48 PM
Qatar uses Arabic "qaf" I think.  The pronunciation I learned is weird - kind of like saying a cross between a k and a g, with the letter stuck in the back of the throat.

Indeed but then "Qaf" also has a different sound when at the end of the word cf. Iraq IIRC I am no arabist.
As for Qatar wiki has many pronunciations including standard arabic and the local one.

QuoteQatar (/ˈkætɑːr/, /ˈkɑːtɑːr/, /ˈkɑːtər/ or /kəˈtɑːr/;[10] Arabic: قطر‎‎ Qatar [ˈqɑtˤɑr]; local vernacular pronunciation: [ˈɡɪtˤɑr])

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar

Alternatively, the Senate offers its advice on the matter.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/politics/how-do-you-say-qatar-senate-hearing-has-the-answer/2014/06/12/57b193aa-f240-11e3-8658-4dc6c63456f1_video.html
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