Bro CEOs

[dps]

Let me put it this way: garbon expressed an ought: companies should not use that excuse, because, presumably, garbon believes it undercuts, even from the perspective of the company itself, the possibilities that there may be something to reform. dps also expressed an ought: employees should not express grievances, because the legitimate way to express grievance is to quit. Normalizing dps's stance has strong social effects - with which I disagree. Your mileage, I am sure, varies considerably.

I didn't necessarily mean that my only recourse should be to quit.  After all, unless I own my own business, there's always going to be something that isn't exactly the way I personally want it (no matter what government regulations or union contracts are applicable, unless I have the power to unilaterally impose such, and if I had that kind of power, why would I be working?  And speaking of regulations and contracts, I have to abide by those even if I own the business).  But there are some jobs I simply don't want to do, and I have other options, so I work elsewhere.

[alfred russel]

The interesting thing about Uber, is from what I understand, it has always held the belief that its future is a fleet of autonomous vehicles. Basically, its drivers are tolerated as a practical necessity until the technology it is working on renders them obsolete.

[Admiral Yi]

It is very much an issue. In a society where people, individually or as a group, have widely varying levels of power over others, undermining the legitimacy of collective grievances in ordinary discourse has tremendous effect in providing counter powers. The consequences of someone quitting for Uber is negligible. The consequences of quitting for an Uber driver can be significant.

In a society where a significant number of people with little negotiating power have actually internalized the managerial ethic (don't like it, quit), the collective effect is to confer even more power upon businesses.

Let me put it this way: garbon expressed an ought: companies should not use that excuse, because, presumably, garbon believes it undercuts, even from the perspective of the company itself, the possibilities that there may be something to reform. dps also expressed an ought: employees should not express grievances, because the legitimate way to express grievance is to quit. Normalizing dps's stance has strong social effects - with which I disagree. Your mileage, I am sure, varies considerably.

The amount of power the employer has is a function of the opportunity cost to the employee.  I.e., the value of their next best alternative.  That value is determined by the larger market, not by that particular employer.  In other words, the only way an employer has leverage is to provide rents in the economic sense.  BTW, this is not a question of legitimacy, it is, as you mentioned, about power.

I don't see the post where dps said employees should not express grievances.  I only see the post where he said it's illogical to expect employers to accomodate all requests.  I'd happily work in a meat packing plant if they offered 50K with benefits and I didn't have to show up.

[Oexmelin]

The power of collective action of employees, and the capacity of action of employers is intimately tied to the legitimacy they enjoy in the public sphere, and the assessment that both have, of their capacity to convince others of their legitimacy. I.e., if I can only imagine people calling me a whiner for speaking out, I will keep silent. And if I can only imagine *myself* as a whiner if I speak out, I will silence others. 

[Admiral Yi]

The power of collective action of employees, and the capacity of action of employers is intimately tied to the legitimacy they enjoy in the public sphere, and the assessment that both have, of their capacity to convince others of their legitimacy. I.e., if I can only imagine people calling me a whiner for speaking out, I will keep silent. And if I can only imagine *myself* as a whiner if I speak out, I will silence others.

OK, so in effect you're arguing for the syndicalist point of view that wages and working conditions should be arbitrated in the court of public opinion.  And to go further, you're unhappy with the verdict that court has reached, at least in the US.

[grumbler]

What is terrible is how the managerial ethic has been thoroughly ingrained in the self-imagination of the worker.

Sounds awful.  How do you live with it?

[alfred russel]

I'm someone disposed to what I think Oex's point of view is...which I think involves lower skilled workers organizing to obtain better wages than they could negotiate individually. Basically, something along the lines of what taxi drivers have enjoyed.

Unfortunately, I think the taxi driver is being replaced by the lower paid uber driver just before they are all replaced by self driving cars.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm someone disposed to what I think Oex's point of view is...which I think involves lower skilled workers organizing to obtain better wages than they could negotiate individually. Basically, something along the lines of what taxi drivers have enjoyed.

Unfortunately, I think the taxi driver is being replaced by the lower paid uber driver just before they are all replaced by self driving cars.

Are taxi drivers unionized anywhere in the US?  I've never heard of it.

The folks that are organized are the medallion owners.

[Oexmelin]

What is terrible is how the managerial ethic has been thoroughly ingrained in the self-imagination of the worker.

Sounds awful.  How do you live with it?

Political activism

[grumbler]

The power of collective action of employees, and the capacity of action of employers is intimately tied to the legitimacy they enjoy in the public sphere, and the assessment that both have, of their capacity to convince others of their legitimacy. I.e., if I can only imagine people calling me a whiner for speaking out, I will keep silent. And if I can only imagine *myself* as a whiner if I speak out, I will silence others.

Disagree.  The public in the US knows little and cares less about the vast majority of decisions made by typical employees and managers.  Maybe it is different where you are, but the power of collective action by either employees or management here is determined far more by personal relationships than by "the legitimacy they enjoy in the public sphere."

[alfred russel]

Are taxi drivers unionized anywhere in the US?  I've never heard of it.

The folks that are organized are the medallion owners.

Not that I know of, but the medallion scheme serves a similar function.

[grumbler]

What is terrible is how the managerial ethic has been thoroughly ingrained in the self-imagination of the worker.

Sounds awful.  How do you live with it?

Political activism

Have you been able to politically activate the self-imagination of the worker in your neck of the woods?

[Admiral Yi]

Not that I know of, but the medallion scheme serves a similar function.

My understanding is the medallion scheme passes rents to the owners, not the drivers.

[Oexmelin]

Have you been able to politically activate the self-imagination of the worker in your neck of the woods?

Be sure to let me know if you genuinely want to discuss this issue.

[grumbler]

I'm someone disposed to what I think Oex's point of view is...which I think involves lower skilled workers organizing to obtain better wages than they could negotiate individually. Basically, something along the lines of what taxi drivers have enjoyed.

Unfortunately, I think the taxi driver is being replaced by the lower paid uber driver just before they are all replaced by self driving cars.

Are taxi drivers unionized anywhere in the US?  I've never heard of it.

The folks that are organized are the medallion owners.

There are informal driver unions, but no collective bargaining agreements of which I am aware.