Snowden Revisited

[DontSayBanana]

In an effort to avoid threadjacking Ank (feel free to merge if unnecessary), what is this stuff about Snowden?  Did I miss a major development and the two major camps have gotten merged into one with new info, or am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?

[Alcibiades]

Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.

[PRC]

For Russia he was (possibly still is) a useful idiot.

[Zoupa]

Nope, hes still a delusional piece of shit.

How so?

Genuine question. I didn't delve into Snowden much apart from what I heard on the news, "whistleblower, said the NSA was way overstepping their mission".

[Valmy]

Delusions of grandeur mostly. I thought he was basically a good guy at the time, even though Ank insisted otherwise pretty passionately. Now he seems to be a pretty self important idiot.

[grumbler]

Snowden's not a whistleblower.  There's no evidence whatsoever that he had in mind any reforms.  He didn't take his case to anyone with the power to reform the abuses he supposedly decried.  All the evidence we have is that he was a regular old spy who blew his cover to give the Russians cover for publicly releasing the documents he stole that the Russians thought would embarrass the US.  90% of what he gave the Russians was never published.

[The Minsky Moment]

am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?

yes

[Berkut]

am I still justified in thinking the kid is a self-righteous twit who did a wrong thing for the wrong reasons, accidentally including a right thing, but who still lacks the basic self-awareness or even basic understanding of Russian civics to realize he only gets to stay in Russia because Putin considers him a useful idiot?

yes

I think that is likely the best possible case interpretation of what he did.

The likely case is that he is simply engaged in espionage.

[LaCroix]

when did the espionage theory develop?

[The Minsky Moment]

when did the espionage theory develop?

When he deliberately stole highly classified documents and gave them to foreign powers.

[Valmy]

when did the espionage theory develop?

The very second we ever heard about him. At least on this board.

I was really surprised about how quickly he was denounced by people on this board, especially Ank who knows a thing or two about the intelligence community I think.

[LaCroix]

I guess I missed those arguments. cdm's article the other day seemed like new territory.

[The Minsky Moment]

If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt.  And he's already been charged.  He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.

[Berkut]

He stole a bunch of documents and then handed them to a dictator who is the clear and unambiguous enemy of the United States.

Now, it is possible he did this for noble reasons.

It is possible that someone robbing a 7-Eleven is doing so in order to feed some starving children, or because the owner is a drug dealer, or some other explanation other than the obvious one of the person doing the robbing simply being a thief.

But the default presumption is generally the obvious one - they are just a thief.

Snowdens actions have not suggested that he is much of anything other than a simple spy. I can be convinced otherwise, but I would need to see some actual evidence, and from what he has *actually done* (as opposed to what he and his supporters say), he looks like, at best, a useful idiot being played by Putin, and at worse simply a paid agent of the Russian intelligence services.

[LaCroix]

If you read the espionage statute, there isn't much argument about Snowden's guilt.  And he's already been charged.  He's not hanging around Moscow just for the borscht.

oh, is that what the references here to spy and espionage mean? I misunderstood, thinking the theory was he was some semi-agent hired by the russian government before bolted