So, what did happen in 2016?

[Razgovory]

How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

Look not every single person who voted for Trump or Brexit is some kind of radical alt right nutcase.

How many Trump voters believe in a "liberal media bias"?

[Razgovory]

I keep  getting told by conservatives that the hacking didn't actually happen.  It's just a liberal lie.

[Valmy]

How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

Look not every single person who voted for Trump or Brexit is some kind of radical alt right nutcase.

How many Trump voters believe in a "liberal media bias"?

I don't know. But somehow I doubt Michigan and Wisconsin are lost forever.

[Razgovory]

How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

Look not every single person who voted for Trump or Brexit is some kind of radical alt right nutcase.

How many Trump voters believe in a "liberal media bias"?

I don't know. But somehow I doubt Michigan and Wisconsin are lost forever.

I repeat my initial question:  How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

[MadImmortalMan]

I keep  getting told by conservatives that the hacking didn't actually happen.  It's just a liberal lie.

It doesn't really matter though does it? I mean, the Russians didn't write those emails. The fact that they were inflammatory is John Podesta's fault.

[garbon]

How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

Look not every single person who voted for Trump or Brexit is some kind of radical alt right nutcase.

How many Trump voters believe in a "liberal media bias"?

I don't know. But somehow I doubt Michigan and Wisconsin are lost forever.

I repeat my initial question:  How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

Make your own lie which is more exciting!

[Valmy]

I repeat my initial question:  How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

I never suggested you would. The failure of Trump's policies will convince them.

[DGuller]

I repeat my initial question:  How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

I never suggested you would. The failure of Trump's policies will convince them.

Will it?  Perceiving failure requires collecting facts and rationally analyzing them.

[Valmy]

I repeat my initial question:  How do you convince people who refuse the to share the same objective reality as you?

I never suggested you would. The failure of Trump's policies will convince them.

Will it?  Perceiving failure requires collecting facts and rationally analyzing them.

I believe I stated that the margins are thin so it only takes a small fraction of those voters to flip.

[grumbler]

I don't think internationalization of capital is leftist at all. I identify it as a right wing concept, but potentially I am willing to compromise and call it an economist technocrat concept in the service of big capital independent of other political concerns

I never realized allowing poor nations a chance to lift their people out of poverty was what technocratic big capital was all about. Good to know.

Are you sure you are posting in the right thread?  No one here is talking about whether or not to '[allow] poor nations a chance to lift their people out of poverty."  we are talking about why populism has shifted away from the previously prevailing popular narrative that peace and prosperity are achieved through western liberal ideas.

[grumbler]

You become a CEO while I wasn't looking? I agree with you that it's a good outcome, but the second costs increase they'll find another sweatshop nation. Sometimes it helps long term, like in Taiwan (I remember when I was a kid everything was made there) who went from making trinkets, clothes, and toys, to having a robust industry now. But that's neither the intermediate nor long term goal of multinationals and companies who outsource. To use Seedy's favourite phrase, its shareholder value.

read some Adam Smith.  He addresses your uncertainty directly.

[grumbler]

I keep  getting told by conservatives that the hacking didn't actually happen.  It's just a liberal lie.

It doesn't really matter though does it? I mean, the Russians didn't write those emails. The fact that they were inflammatory is John Podesta's fault.

I am curious as to why you think those emails were unedited.  Why wouldn't Clinton's enemies have altered them to their own advantage?

[grumbler]

I believe I stated that the margins are thin so it only takes a small fraction of those voters to flip.

I agree with you.  The tinfoil hat brigade (on the right or the left) will never be convinced by anything so weak as evidence, but the majority of Trump supporters aren't tinfoil hat people.  They expect a specific outcome, and will dump trump if he does not deliver.

[Jacob]

I never realized allowing poor nations a chance to lift their people out of poverty was what technocratic big capital was all about. Good to know.

It isn't. It's about gaining access to foreign markets (increase profits), cheap foreign labour (decrease costs), and lowering the transactional costs of international trade. The impact on individual states is a secondary effect, even if it occasionally makes a propaganda point.

Do you genuinely believe that NAFTA, TPP, the EU common market, etc are about "allowing poor nations a chance to lift their people out of poverty"?

[Jacob]

I think if we're to be consistent about our principles as leftists, then we need to apply them universally. We can't just say because it's a bank or a corporation, we'll exclude them. If our ideas aren't good for everyone, then they aren't good.

I didn't realize you self-identified as leftist

I'm not sure I follow. Which principles should we apply consistently to banks and corporations?