Sorry, Louise Casey, but Muslim women are held back by discrimination

[Berkut]

Well, I don't think you can separate out the hijab/burqa thing from the rest of it.

People don't get worked up over the Amish culture requiring women to dress in a certain manner for example. I think that is largely because we understand Amish culture in general, and in the aggregate we know that the totality of how the Amish view women as being nominally within the bounds of acceptable western culture, at least as a quaint outlier.

Personally, I actually think that how the Amish treat women is pretty terrible myself, but again, it isn't something that I look at and just say "That cannot be tolerated in a liberal society".

If the problems the West have with Islam were limited to a head scarf, I don't think there would be any issue over it - anymore than there is an issue over Sikh head coverings or Jews wearing skull caps. It would just be some quaint curiosity. But in fact there IS more behind it, there is honor killings, stoning for adultery, lack of educational opportunities, etc., etc., etc.

I think if the problems are things like honour killings, stoning for adultery, lack of educational opportunies etc etc, then those are the things that should be addressed; especially when you have Muslim women who are not subject to those and who nonetheless chose to wear hijab.

If there are social problems in certain groups, there are many many better ways of addressing those problems than to express concern about the clothes the members of those groups wear.

I suppose, but you are demanding that social discourse be somehow radically cleaner that it ever is, has been, or will be. Topics come up, they get mixed up, and it turns into a mess.

Some people use that inevitable mess to shove in their idiotic bullshit of course (look at the overt racism behind many critiques of BLM) but the reverse is true as well, that the other end takes the existence of the dumbasses as a way of painting anyone who raises any objection (again, back to BLM as an obvious example).

In sum, I guess I agree that going after the problem of women's rights in Islam by bitching about head scarves is pretty ineffectual. On the other hand, I don't think it is some obvious indicator or dog whistle for anti-Muslim bigotry.

And I think the vast majority of people who actually find Muslim women's dress worth of concern are concerned about stuff other than the hijab.

Assuming I have my terms right of course. A hijab is just a head scarf, right? Leaves the face uncovered?

[merithyn]

In sum, I guess I agree that going after the problem of women's rights in Islam by bitching about head scarves is pretty ineffectual. On the other hand, I don't think it is some obvious indicator or dog whistle for anti-Muslim bigotry.

And I think the vast majority of people who actually find Muslim women's dress worth of concern are concerned about stuff other than the hijab.

I agree with the above.

Assuming I have my terms right of course. A hijab is just a head scarf, right? Leaves the face uncovered?

Correct.

[dps]

I don't get it. I have heard shitloads of people get on conservative Christianity. That is why non-conservative Christianity exists. Do you think we reject them and their ideas for no reason at all?

Speaking as a conservative Christian, depending on who "we" is, yes, it does happen.

OTOH, I'm not entirely sure that I meet your definition of a "conservative Christian", either.

[Valmy]

I don't get it. I have heard shitloads of people get on conservative Christianity. That is why non-conservative Christianity exists. Do you think we reject them and their ideas for no reason at all?

Speaking as a conservative Christian, depending on who "we" is, yes, it does happen.

OTOH, I'm not entirely sure that I meet your definition of a "conservative Christian", either.

Conservative might not be the right word. But God help us if we get into categorizing Christians. I would prefer we not get into this.

My only point was that the gender issues in Islam are obvious. It seemed like the people who we could reliably count on to critique that are excusing it for whatever reason and attacking those amongst their ranks who are doing this. Now Meri and Jake seem to be keeping their focus on the generally anti-Muslim types who just grab whatever argument they can find to go on the offensive but that is a different issue. So I think we are talking past each other.

[merithyn]

I don't get it. I have heard shitloads of people get on conservative Christianity. That is why non-conservative Christianity exists. Do you think we reject them and their ideas for no reason at all?

Speaking as a conservative Christian, depending on who "we" is, yes, it does happen.

OTOH, I'm not entirely sure that I meet your definition of a "conservative Christian", either.

Conservative might not be the right word. But God help us if we get into categorizing Christians. I would prefer we not get into this.

My only point was that the gender issues in Islam are obvious. It seemed like the people who we could reliably count on to critique that are excusing it for whatever reason and attacking those amongst their ranks who are doing this. Now Meri and Jake seem to be keeping their focus on the generally anti-Muslim types who just grab whatever argument they can find to go on the offensive but that is a different issue. So I think we are talking past each other.

The gender issues in the Middle East aren't entirely based on religion. In fact, it's been argued that the religion was warped to fit their already-messed-up view of women rather than their messed up view of women stemmed from their religion. Same with the Islamic African nations. These are places were women were treated poorly anyway. They'd have - and have done - warped Christianity to do the same stuff.

I have zero problems with Islam as a religion. I have major problems with the way that the religion is applied. I can say exactly the same thing about Christianity.

[Richard Hakluyt]

@Berkut - yes, face is uncovered with a hijab. A niqab is the one where the face is covered.

They are too very different things imo, I find the niqab disturbing.

[The Brain]

I find your lack of niqab disturbing.

[garbon]

They are too very different things imo, I find the niqab disturbing.

Well I find the niqab unsettling too but I don't think public policy should be set based on my comfort. I can see how it could be detrimental to society if I had my way and children were banned from public places.

[Valmy]

They are too very different things imo, I find the niqab disturbing.

Well I find the niqab unsettling too but I don't think public policy should be set based on my comfort.

Absolutely.

I can see how it could be detrimental to society if I had my way and children were banned from public places.

But my children bring nothing but joy to public places

[garbon]

Maybe you could apply to get your children a waiver.

[Richard Hakluyt]

They are too very different things imo, I find the niqab disturbing.

Well I find the niqab unsettling too but I don't think public policy should be set based on my comfort. I can see how it could be detrimental to society if I had my way and children were banned from public places.

I agree with that, with the disclaimer that the niqab is not acceptable attire at places like courts, passport control, schools etc.