Ireland compensates woman forced to travel to Britain for an abortion

[Valmy]

So many reasons to move to the UK....

I don't get it. You are as likely to become pregnant as I am.

You don't get it. It's not about whether or not I can end a pregnancy. It's about whether or not I'm considered a fully functioning adult worthy of the same treatments and rights as you are. And right now, in the US, I'm not. This is a symptom, not the disease.

There are no legal restrictions to abortion in the US, except whatever stupid loopholes the states can dream up (and even then those are regulations on the clinics, not legal restrictions). I don't know how things are in Illinois, granted. There are in the UK. It is more restrictive. So, again, I don't get it. In what sense is the UK more considerate of you as a full functioning adult?

I thought you were referring to the fact it was covered by the NHS. So color me confused.

[Barrister]

As opposed to Canada, where Parliament in the mid-80s decided that making a law on abortion was too hard, so they just gave up.  There are no legal restrictions on abortions of any kind anywhere in Canada.

I wonder what the stats up there are on later-term abortions.

We don't even really know - they aren't required to keep statistics.  Abortion rights activists say "trust us, they only happen with good reasons", but that reasoning is entirely between the woman and her doctor.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a pro-life activist.  I'm on record saying that I accept Bill Clinton's position on abortion - that is should be "safe, legal and rare".  BUt I much prefer the sounds of the UK's law than Canada's lack of one.

[merithyn]

There are no legal restrictions to abortion in the US, except whatever stupid loopholes the states can dream up. I don't know how things are in Illinois, granted. There are in the UK. It is more restrictive. So, again, I don't get it. In what sense is the UK more considerate of you as a full functioning adult?

I thought you were referring to the fact it was covered by the NHS. So color me confused.

Valmy, this isn't about *me*. This is about how the US views women's rights regarding their own bodies.

A man working at Hobby Lobby can run out and get Viagra with just a script, and it's fully covered by his insurance, but a woman working there is denied birth control coverage because "religion". A man in Indiana can get a woman pregnant - multiple women at that - and walk away free and clear while she has to go through a day of testing where she's forced to get - and watch - an ultrasound, go through a "training" on fetal pain, wait 18 hours (so an overnight stay if she's had to drive into a city to get one since there are limited facilities outside the city), and then go through a painful procedure, but only IF she caught that she was pregnant before her 20th week. Because if she didn't catch it, she'll have to drive to Illinois to have it done, pay a considerable amount more, etc. Oh, and that's all true EVEN IF THE WOMAN'S LIFE IS ON THE LINE.

How can YOU not see that this makes me a second-class citizen to you? This isn't about whether or not an abortion is an option for me. This is about treating women as "less than" simply because we're fucking incubators and all you do is sperm production.

And here are the abortion laws in the US: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/overview-abortion-laws

Notice the line at the top where it says that 75% of abortions are on women below the poverty line. Why? Because this country also doesn't want to help take care of those children once they're born. No no no.... you must have the child, and once you do, fuck you and fuck it. Buh bye!

[Valmy]

I thought the view of the US was that abortion was a guaranteed right under the Constitution. In the UK it is a restrictive law.

It sounds like that in the UK a woman in Northern Ireland has to cross over the England. So how are they better?

Notice the line at the top where it says that 75% of abortions are on women below the poverty line. Why? Because this country also doesn't want to help take care of those children once they're born. No no no.... you must have the child, and once you do, fuck you and fuck it. Buh bye!

Well look I am not claiming this country has the best social safetynet in the world but I was under the impression you get more welfare, foodstamps, and tax credits for children and child care and you get free education until 12th grade.

[garbon]

It sounds like that in the UK a woman in Northern Ireland has to cross over the England. So how are they better?

Most women in the UK are not in Northern Ireland. Seems like a bizarre aside.

[merithyn]

We don't even really know - they aren't required to keep statistics.  Abortion rights activists say "trust us, they only happen with good reasons", but that reasoning is entirely between the woman and her doctor.

Exactly as it should be.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a pro-life activist.  I'm on record saying that I accept Bill Clinton's position on abortion - that is should be "safe, legal and rare".  BUt I much prefer the sounds of the UK's law than Canada's lack of one.

The laws as written in Canada appear to show that abortion there is on par with what's going on in the US in terms of late abortions. At least according to the stats that the CIH have on hand. Women don't have abortions for fun. And laws don't change the need for them.

What the US needs to do more of is education and free birth control. Want fewer abortions? That's how to do it.

[Valmy]

It sounds like that in the UK a woman in Northern Ireland has to cross over the England. So how are they better?

Most women in the UK are not in Northern Ireland. Seems like a bizarre aside.

My apologies, I thought we were talking about the principle of the thing.

[Valmy]

What the US needs to do more of is education and free birth control. Want fewer abortions? That's how to do it.

I couldn't agree more. I have no idea why better and free birth control is not a major priority for people who want to end abortions.

[garbon]

It sounds like that in the UK a woman in Northern Ireland has to cross over the England. So how are they better?

Most women in the UK are not in Northern Ireland. Seems like a bizarre aside.

My apologies, I thought we were talking about the principle of the thing.

So the UK is less free because a small portion of the UK has less free laws? Don't pull that mellow shit.

[Berkut]

Meri is mostly right. End of story.

FYP

[merithyn]

I thought the view of the US was that abortion was a guaranteed right under the Constitution. In the UK it is a restrictive law.

It sounds like that in the UK a woman in Northern Ireland has to cross over the England. So how are they better?

Guaranteed until Trump gets his way and puts a pro-life judge on the bench. Guaranteed so long as you don't live in a state with highly restrictive laws. Guaranteed so long as you can afford it.

Abortions are across-the-board allowed in the UK (Northern Ireland being the exception), paid for by the state, and not subjective to a single Lord Ruler deciding the laws for women.

Well look I am not claiming this country has the best social safetynet in the world but I was under the impression you get more welfare, foodstamps, and tax credits for children and child care and you get free education until 12th grade.

Having raised four children in one of the more progressive states for "social safety nets", I can assure you that welfare doesn't pay for shit - IF you happen to be broke enough to qualify, which I never did, including foodstamps. The Tax Credits for children are going away, or hadn't you heard? And they're fairly recent, like in the past decade and a half or so. I never received free child care, and in fact had to stay home because it cost me more in child care than I made at my job. And that "free" education cost me $500 this fall for my daughter in fees, book rental, charges, etc. When I had all four kids, I had to beg the school district for a break, whereby they lowered the costs to $150/kid that I was able to pay over several months. Yeah, even with a school district "discount", I paid $600 every September for my kids to go to school. That was half of my paycheck that month. That's not even including school supplies or clothes.

[Valmy]

So the UK is less free because a small portion of the UK has less free laws? Don't pull that mellow shit.

I thought this was about the views of the US versus the views of the UK regarding abortion. Here it is a protected constitutional right. The states fuck with things by regulating the clinics, but that is not a reflections on rights in the US but how our federal system works.

In the UK there is no guarantee of abortion rights and it seems to be entirely under the control of the constituent countries. They can, if they want, entirely restrict it and England is more restrictive than the more permissive states in the US. So how is the UK better?

[merithyn]

In the UK there is no guarantee of abortion rights and it seems to be entirely under the control of the constituent countries. They can, if they want, entirely restrict it and England is more restrictive than the more permissive states in the US. So how is the UK better?

But the UK is more permissive than 38 US states. That's more than half our country who sees women as incubators before people.

And in the UK, it's paid for by the state, so not dependent on individual income. That alone makes it far more permissive than the other 12 states, regardless of their 20-week rule. (Remember, 91% of all abortions take place in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy with 8% in the next four weeks. How many of those "late term abortions" are due to having to save up the money to have it done?)

And while you keep saying that it's a "constitutional right" for women, when you have 38 states creating laws that make them essentially impossible to get, it's a bullshit argument.

[Berkut]

There are no legal restrictions to abortion in the US, except whatever stupid loopholes the states can dream up. I don't know how things are in Illinois, granted. There are in the UK. It is more restrictive. So, again, I don't get it. In what sense is the UK more considerate of you as a full functioning adult?

I thought you were referring to the fact it was covered by the NHS. So color me confused.

Valmy, this isn't about *me*. This is about how the US views women's rights regarding their own bodies.

A man working at Hobby Lobby can run out and get Viagra with just a script, and it's fully covered by his insurance, but a woman working there is denied birth control coverage because "religion". A man in Indiana can get a woman pregnant - multiple women at that - and walk away free and clear while she has to go through a day of testing where she's forced to get - and watch - an ultrasound, go through a "training" on fetal pain, wait 18 hours (so an overnight stay if she's had to drive into a city to get one since there are limited facilities outside the city), and then go through a painful procedure, but only IF she caught that she was pregnant before her 20th week. Because if she didn't catch it, she'll have to drive to Illinois to have it done, pay a considerable amount more, etc. Oh, and that's all true EVEN IF THE WOMAN'S LIFE IS ON THE LINE.

How can YOU not see that this makes me a second-class citizen to you? This isn't about whether or not an abortion is an option for me. This is about treating women as "less than" simply because we're fucking incubators and all you do is sperm production.

And here are the abortion laws in the US: https://www.guttmacher.org/state-policy/explore/overview-abortion-laws

Notice the line at the top where it says that 75% of abortions are on women below the poverty line. Why? Because this country also doesn't want to help take care of those children once they're born. No no no.... you must have the child, and once you do, fuck you and fuck it. Buh bye!

Meri, you know that I am in about 99% agreement with you on this, but I think you are radically over-stating the "second class citizen" bit. There is a difference in the law between men and women because the law is about biology, and men and women are biologically different in this regard. There can be no posible that could make the outcome of sex the same for men and women - that difference is what defines the terms!

Now, there are plenty of laws that do in fact attempt to make women second class citizens, and of course they need to be changed. But the fact that the outcome of some particular law or set of laws is different for men and women, especially in a subject that is completely about the very things that define our genders like procreation, doesn't mean that the intent MUST be to make women second class citizens.

[Berkut]

In the UK there is no guarantee of abortion rights and it seems to be entirely under the control of the constituent countries. They can, if they want, entirely restrict it and England is more restrictive than the more permissive states in the US. So how is the UK better?

But the UK is more permissive than 38 US states. That's more than half our country who sees women as incubators before people.

And in the UK, it's paid for by the state, so not dependent on individual income. That alone makes it far more permissive than the other 12 states, regardless of their 20-week rule. (Remember, 91% of all abortions take place in the first 20 weeks of pregnancy with 8% in the next four weeks. How many of those "late term abortions" are due to having to save up the money to have it done?)

And while you keep saying that it's a "constitutional right" for women, when you have 38 states creating laws that make them essentially impossible to get, it's a bullshit argument.

Essentially impossible?