The Great White Wail: The Not-So-Silent White Majority

[Eddie Teach]

That reply might be pertinent if he was trolling Euros for hate speech laws.

[DGuller]

Or, another simpler explanation is that liberals like you really aren't in favor of free speech to start with and are always looking for ways to suppress speech you don't agree with.

That may be a simple explanation, but an idiotic one.  I've always pragmatically thought that in the end, the truth prevails, even if it takes unseemly paths to victory.  But now I am extremely concerned that the unseemly path we're on is not to victory, but to a very dark place.  Social freedom shouldn't be a suicide pact for freedom, it shouldn't enable fascists to thrive.

[Razgovory]

Elections have consequences.

You informed us that you would prefer for the GOP to obstruct everything that that Democrats did over the last 8 years.  Why shouldn't the Democrats do the same?

[Admiral Yi]

That may be a simple explanation, but an idiotic one.  I've always pragmatically thought that in the end, the truth prevails, even if it takes unseemly paths to victory.  But now I am extremely concerned that the unseemly path we're on is not to victory, but to a very dark place.  Social freedom shouldn't be a suicide pact for freedom, it shouldn't enable fascists to thrive.

If free speech doesn't work, then neither does democracy. 

Where you're leading is either management of information flow or denial of sovereignty.

America is a publicly conducted experiment in the repercussions of unrestricted freedom.  We can perform no greater service to the rest of humanity than to demonstrate the end results of that freedom.

[DGuller]

I'm thinking out loud, and I don't even have a solution in mind.  I'm just seeing how successful the hard right propaganda was, to the point that the brainwashed ones think that everyone else is brainwashed, and I perceive it as an existential threat to democracy.

[Jacob]

Elections have consequences.

They do indeed, and we're in for some real consequences in 2017.

[Oexmelin]

If free speech doesn't work, then neither does democracy. 

See Zoupa's comments above. Free speech has always been restricted by all sorts of constraints, and the "right kind" of free speech has always been enforced by State-like apparatus, much like the most radical forms of democracy have always been carefully shut down, and circumscribed into representative democracies; i.e., launching a newspaper required quite a bit of capital and technical know-how, and free blacks could certain say what they wanted in the Deep South, but the subsequent lynching certainly had a way to curb their enthusiasm for the principle. I find it difficult to accept that the methods which should safeguard free speech and democracy should not evolve and change according to the possibilities of the time. We can certainly consider both free speech, and democracy as ahistorical realities. They are inspiring utopia, but as utopia, they also rely upon a commitment to the equal dignity of mankind.

I think it's always been a big blind spot of the story of the American Revolution to have removed violence and constraints as conditions for its success, instead making it the story of a gigantic coming together; that its shiny ideals were sufficient for everyone to spontaneously join in communion. Certainly, republics exist in the hearts of men and women, but, as countless stories of civil wars, failed revolutions, and American invasions show, it never is enough to establish them on a sure footing without any other tools of power. 

[dps]

I'm thinking out loud, and I don't even have a solution in mind.  I'm just seeing how successful the hard right propaganda was, to the point that the brainwashed ones think that everyone else is brainwashed, and I perceive it as an existential threat to democracy.

That's because you're a fool.  Threats to democracy don't come from too much free speech, they come from too little.

To Jake:  yes, none of our freedoms are absolute.  But IMO, restrictions placed on our freedoms by the government should be as limited as possible, and give that freedom of speech is one of our most basic rights (again, IMO, but I'm hardly alone on this one), it's one on which the bar to any restrictions should be placed very high.  And what DGuller seemed to be suggesting (that there should be restrictions on some overtly political speech) is particularly dangerous to democratic principles.

FWIW, I also think President-Elect Trump's proposal to change our libel laws is something that should also be fought.  We don't need it to be easier for celebrities to silence their critics via lawsuits (granted that a lot of vile lies get told about celebrities, but it comes with the territory).

[DGuller]

That's because you're a fool.  Threats to democracy don't come from too much free speech, they come from too little.

No need to try to be insulting.  And it doesn't have to be either/or.  I think everyone agrees that incitement to violence kind of speech is a threat to democracy, and it's already restricted.  Maybe incitement to intolerance should be thought of to belong in the same category.  If you want to have a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant of intolerance.

[dps]

That's because you're a fool.  Threats to democracy don't come from too much free speech, they come from too little.

No need to try to be insulting.  And it doesn't have to be either/or.  I think everyone agrees that incitement to violence kind of speech is a threat to democracy, and it's already restricted.  Maybe incitement to intolerance should be thought of to belong in the same category.  If you want to have a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant of intolerance.

Typical leftist doublespeak BS.  The solution to intolerance isn't more intolerance.  That sort of thinking is a big part of why Europe has more trouble integrating immigrants than the US.

[Oexmelin]

I am sorry - have you listened to anything from the latest electoral campaign?

[jimmy olsen]

I am sorry - have you listened to anything from the latest electoral campaign?

The immigrants are assimilating fine. That the GOP base and Trump is in denial over it doesn't change the facts. 

[garbon]

That's because you're a fool.  Threats to democracy don't come from too much free speech, they come from too little.

No need to try to be insulting.  And it doesn't have to be either/or.  I think everyone agrees that incitement to violence kind of speech is a threat to democracy, and it's already restricted.  Maybe incitement to intolerance should be thought of to belong in the same category.  If you want to have a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant of intolerance.

Typical leftist doublespeak BS.  The solution to intolerance isn't more intolerance.  That sort of thinking is a big part of why Europe has more trouble integrating immigrants than the US.

Actually shaming people into not voicing racist opinions generally works pretty well.

[Razgovory]

That's because you're a fool.  Threats to democracy don't come from too much free speech, they come from too little.

No need to try to be insulting.  And it doesn't have to be either/or.  I think everyone agrees that incitement to violence kind of speech is a threat to democracy, and it's already restricted.  Maybe incitement to intolerance should be thought of to belong in the same category.  If you want to have a tolerant society, you have to be intolerant of intolerance.

Typical leftist doublespeak BS.  The solution to intolerance isn't more intolerance.  That sort of thinking is a big part of why Europe has more trouble integrating immigrants than the US.

Well, the Germans are pretty tough on Nazis, but we are the one with the alt-right in the White House.  Maybe we were wrong...

[CountDeMoney]

Typical leftist doublespeak BS.  The solution to intolerance isn't more intolerance.  That sort of thinking is a big part of why Europe has more trouble integrating immigrants than the US.

Actually shaming people into not voicing racist opinions generally works pretty well.

No, no, no...you see, they would prefer they don't; they prefer "the left" to continue taking the "high road" when it comes to intolerance.  Because that way, they continue to push their agenda unabated. 

Well, fuck that.  The days of peaceniks singing kumbayah while intolerant haters continue to go ahead and curbstomp people are over. 

And when people finally have enough of being roadkill in the one way discussion, they'll cry about "the solution to intolerance isn't more intolerance." Remember, these are the same punk ass bitches that opposed integration with violence, and yet bitched about heavy-handedness by the government.  Fuck these assholes.  It's about time intolerance gets some mailboxes blown the fuck up in some motherfucking faces.  Blow up some of their fucking churches.  Beat them with some baseball bats in front of their families for a change.  Fucking assholes.