What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[The Brain]

Cattle thieves aren't nice people, but who can resist a good head of cattle?

[viper37]

Normally with rebellions it's good policy to punish the leaders (which in this case would mean hanging Lee and all CSA generals and political leaders), and then look at the grievances that led to rebellion and see how you can improve on that front. Unfortunately this rebellion was about keeping slavery, so meeting the ex-rebels halfway would carry a great human cost and lead to further problems. The US in its wisdom decided to pretend that Lee and his bois were basically decent people, and meet the South halfway by allowing great formal and informal oppression of ex-slaves and their descendants. And here we are 150 years later with the Civil War still a live issue, an issue that should have been laid to rest at least a century ago.

duh, it's not like the Northeners were all "nice guys" fighting for equality and justice.  Segregation was in vogue not just in the South, after the war.  During the war, mixed military units did not exist.  I think they did not even exist until after the Korean War. "Seperate but equal" was not an invention by disgruntled South Carolinians.  Herbert Hoover instutionalized racial segregation in housing, long after the civil war, at the Federal level, and Woodrow Wilson allowed his cabinet members to segregate their departments.  That wasn't about reconciliation, and about keeping the South from rebelling again.

It is pure historical revisionism than to assign the blame solely on Confederate States for the racial situation currently playing in America.

[viper37]

They're just completely ignoring Donald 

(CNN)The Republican-led Senate Armed Services Committee adopted an amendment behind closed doors for the Pentagon to remove the names of Confederate generals from military assets within three years, according to a source familiar with the proceedings, just as President Donald Trump vowed to fight any such effort.

The amendment was offered by Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, defining assets as property owned or controlled by the Pentagon, whether it's a base, installation, facility, aircraft, ship, plane or type of equipment. The amendment would create an independent commission to review and develop a detailed plan for removing the names.

The move came as Trump rejected calls to remove the name of Confederate generals from military bases, citing American heritage, and the White House threatened to veto any bill that did such that.

The amendment was added to the annual defense authorization bill, and it could still be stripped out as it makes its way through the legislative process. If Trump were to veto such a bill, it would be a big risk given the popular defense measure sets policy for the Pentagon.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/politics/senate-confederate-leaders-names-from-military-assets/

I wonder how they'll rename the U.S.S James Longstreet... oh wait...

[Valmy]

It is pure historical revisionism than to assign the blame solely on Confederate States for the racial situation currently playing in America.

Is it? Well since it is historical revisionism perhaps you can name some of these historians?

Anyway the Confederacy and the Confederate States were a symptom of the racial problems in the United States. It is not like before the Confederacy everything was great. I haven't heard anybody ever claim that solely everything was the fault of the rebelling states in 1861-1865. Strawman much?

However you are wrong on several points. Yes segregation in the Federal Government was a thing, but naming Woodrow Wilson is weird since he was a Southerner...

but allowing the former confederate states to violate the civil rights of the former slaves WAS a reconciliation measure. The northern states did not do that, the blacks who immigrated (and they immigrated TO the north for good reason which you kind of ignore...) were an important voting block. One, ironically, heavily courted by the Democrats who were simultaneously enforcing Jim Crow in the South. Which is why you had weird situations like WEB Dubois and 40% of black voters supporting arch segregationalists like Woodrow Wilson because they were also doing economic reforms and benefited blacks in the north. (obviously if blacks in the south could vote this would have been a much lower percentage)

It's complicated but you equivicating is rather disingenous.

[Valmy]

They're just completely ignoring Donald 

(CNN)The Republican-led Senate Armed Services Committee adopted an amendment behind closed doors for the Pentagon to remove the names of Confederate generals from military assets within three years, according to a source familiar with the proceedings, just as President Donald Trump vowed to fight any such effort.

The amendment was offered by Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, defining assets as property owned or controlled by the Pentagon, whether it's a base, installation, facility, aircraft, ship, plane or type of equipment. The amendment would create an independent commission to review and develop a detailed plan for removing the names.

The move came as Trump rejected calls to remove the name of Confederate generals from military bases, citing American heritage, and the White House threatened to veto any bill that did such that.

The amendment was added to the annual defense authorization bill, and it could still be stripped out as it makes its way through the legislative process. If Trump were to veto such a bill, it would be a big risk given the popular defense measure sets policy for the Pentagon.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/politics/senate-confederate-leaders-names-from-military-assets/

I wonder how they'll rename the U.S.S James Longstreet... oh wait...

I don't get it. There never has been a USS James Longstreet so far as I know.

[Eddie Teach]

Wilson was governor of New Jersey.

[Valmy]

Wilson was governor of New Jersey.

He was from Virginia and made his career as a redemptionist lost cause historian spewing forth pro-Confederate propaganda though, so not really an example of northern segregationalists.

[viper37]

It is pure historical revisionism than to assign the blame solely on Confederate States for the racial situation currently playing in America.

Is it? Well since it is historical revisionism perhaps you can name some of these historians?

Anyway the Confederacy and the Confederate States were a symptom of the racial problems in the United States. It is not like before the Confederacy everything was great. I haven't heard anybody ever claim that solely everything was the fault of the rebelling states in 1861-1865. Strawman much?

Prove me that the North was a paradise of racial harmony during and after the Civil War, and I'll grant you the point.  Prove me that the North was absolutely against moving in indian territories and displacing its innoccupants, and I'll grant you the point.

However you are wrong on several points. Yes segregation in the Federal Government was a thing, but naming Woodrow Wilson is weird since he was a Southerner...

He was a Federal President, in a Federal administration consisting of Northerners, and Southerners and many others.  So, who objected?  Who dissented?  Who revolted? Who went public saying this made no sense 40 years after the South surrendered?  Who publically refused to serve in such an administration?  Did the policy appear with Wilson and disapeared with him?

but allowing the former confederate states to violate the civil rights of the former slaves WAS a reconciliation measure.

I did not say it was.

The northern states did not do that, the blacks who immigrated (and they immigrated TO the north for good reason which you kind of ignore...) were an important voting block.

Yes, they did do segregation.


School segregation only disappeared through the 40s, after many suits brought by the NAACP.

Meanwhile, in Oregon:

The state of Oregon went farther than even any of the Southern states, specifically excluding blacks from entering the state, or from owning property within it. School integration did not come about until the Mid 1970s. As of 2017, the population of Oregon was about 2% black

Hardly the Deep South.


[qupte]One, ironically, heavily courted by the Democrats who were simultaneously enforcing Jim Crow in the South. Which is why you had weird situations like WEB Dubois and 40% of black voters supporting arch segregationalists like Woodrow Wilson because they were also doing economic reforms and benefited blacks in the north. (obviously if blacks in the south could vote this would have been a much lower percentage)[/quote]
Lots of people who voted for Donald Trump ended up losing their medical coverage.  This prooves what, exactly?

[quote ]
It's complicated but you equivicating is rather disingenous.
[/quote]
What I find disingenous is specifically targetting the Southerners as being responsible for segregation and civil rights issues, as if the North had always been angelic.

The South fought to preserve slavery, but the North never fought to promote equal rights to blacks, or anyone else.  At the beginning of the war the Northerners did not even fight to end slavery, Lincoln had to wait until a major military victory to abolish the institution, for fear the people would not support his governent through this.  Why not when the southern States seceded?  Why not just after they fired on Fort Sumter?

Speaking of which, why was the North not mobilized (in a non military meaning) until after the Confederates fired on Fort Sumter?  Since they were all good guys intent on promoting racial equality?

Until 1950, how many States prohibited mixed-race marriages? How many States actually enforced anti-segregation laws everywhere?

Prove me wrong on all these points, and I'll concede that racism in the US was and still is a strictly southern problem, aggravated by the Civil War.

If you prove me that no Union officer ever expressed an opinion, or ever acted against racial harmony during his carreer, I'll even concede the point that the South were the antique version of Cobra and the North the G.I. Joe.

[viper37]

They're just completely ignoring Donald 

(CNN)The Republican-led Senate Armed Services Committee adopted an amendment behind closed doors for the Pentagon to remove the names of Confederate generals from military assets within three years, according to a source familiar with the proceedings, just as President Donald Trump vowed to fight any such effort.

The amendment was offered by Democratic Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, defining assets as property owned or controlled by the Pentagon, whether it's a base, installation, facility, aircraft, ship, plane or type of equipment. The amendment would create an independent commission to review and develop a detailed plan for removing the names.

The move came as Trump rejected calls to remove the name of Confederate generals from military bases, citing American heritage, and the White House threatened to veto any bill that did such that.

The amendment was added to the annual defense authorization bill, and it could still be stripped out as it makes its way through the legislative process. If Trump were to veto such a bill, it would be a big risk given the popular defense measure sets policy for the Pentagon.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/11/politics/senate-confederate-leaders-names-from-military-assets/

I wonder how they'll rename the U.S.S James Longstreet... oh wait...

I don't get it. There never has been a USS James Longstreet so far as I know.

That's the joke.  He's never one of the honored Confederate officers, an example of VICTORY, etc, etc.  AFAIK, there are no statues of him in public places, nor anything named after him, since he led colored troops against white rebels after the war.

[Eddie Teach]

Kind of obscure joke.

[viper37]

It would be sad to lose some names associated with some good generals though.

Beauregard wasn't half bad, and did support equal rights for blacks after the war.  He's not in the same category as Hood or Bragg.

It should be on a case by case basis, evaluating their accomplishment.

[Razgovory]

Viper, what are you going on about?

[Monoriu]

I have always thought it is insane to name your army bases and other things after people who fought against the federal government.  Those traitors should be hung and condemned. 

[Eddie Teach]

You say the same about shoplifters though.

[11B4V]

It would be sad to lose some names associated with some good generals though.

Beauregard wasn't half bad, and did support equal rights for blacks after the war.  He's not in the same category as Hood or Bragg.

It should be on a case by case basis, evaluating their accomplishment.

Traitors and losers. Fuck them