What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Malthus]

Let's not keep changing words to keep up with the treadmill.  Every term will eventually get abused, and we're eventually going to run out of combinations of letters to put together if we keep coming up with new and improved versions of the terms to shed the baggage of the prior version.

Okay "white supremacy" is divisive and part of the "treadmill". What term and vocabulary would you like to discuss the fact that the US is set up - in some cases deliberately and in some cases with no overt intent - to consistently treat white people better than black people?

Or do you disagree that that is a fact? Even if you do, I'm still curious what term you'd prefer to discuss the subject since it appears that many people think that it is a fact. Presumably it'd be good to have the argument over whether it's a fact in a less divisive and treadmill-like fashion. So what alternative vocabulary do you prefer?

I think he's agreeing with your POV!

[Valmy]

The problem is the polarization.

At least in the US, if you are on the political right, your party has been yanked out from under you by the crazies. If you aren't opposing them, you are enabling them; and opposing them, it seems, requires migrating to the other party, since internal opposition has proven ineffective or non-existent.

It really is done on a case by case basis though Malthus.

Though in my case the Republicans in Texas are almost universally super nuts. There are only a few holdouts from the old Bush days left.

The only reason I support Governor Abbott at all is because his probable replacement is worse.

[FunkMonk]

The problem is the polarization.

At least in the US, if you are on the political right, your party has been yanked out from under you by the crazies. If you aren't opposing them, you are enabling them; and opposing them, it seems, requires migrating to the other party, since internal opposition has proven ineffective or non-existent.

The only reason I support Governor Abbott at all is because his probable replacement is worse.

The eternal curse of Texas politics.

[Malthus]

But I thought we were discussing the appropriateness of white supremacy and systemic racism to describe the current situation. I argue that it captures something that previous discussion of racism didn't. You seem to argue that it detracts from genuine discussion. But thus far, the questions about systems that Jacob, JR or I asked have all been deflected by how the loony left is using distracting words.

It isn't about "deflection". Though it is a neat rhetorical trick, to throw around loaded terms and then accuse one's opponents of "deflection"! 

Rather, it's a genuine disagreement over the cause of inequality of outcome that everyone admits exists.

Do they exist because of current racial animus and "White Supremacy"?

Once again, no-one denies that racists and White Supremacists exist today. How much actual influence do they have, though? If they were all eliminated or changed their minds tomorrow - would the perceived inequalities between racial groups disappear?

On the other hand - are these inequalities based on historical and cultural factors that are unlikely to disappear, even if every single White Supremacist was converted? And why does this matter?

I submit, it matters because the solutions one ought to rationally adopt for change will be different, and depend a lot on what one thinks the actual problems are.

Those on the "loony left" (your term) tend to view these things in almost religious terms - convert everyone to one point of view, and change will happen. Raise consciousness. If White, accept guilt and acknowledge privilege - much like the rite of confession. Purge oneself of racial sins.

Problem is, none of that, cathartic though it may be, will of itself create actual change. That requires concrete proposals - over which, as I've said, reasonable people may disagree: the example I've given (though no-one wished to debate it) was "hard" racial quotas. 

 

[Barrister]

I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood with highly ranked school.  The neighborhood is probably just barely majority white, with substantial numbers of east and south asians.  And based on my kids school concerts, I don't think there's a single black student there.

There are significant social problems in certain ethnic communities.  Somali Canadians are not having a lot of success.  The issues with First Nations Canadians are well reported.  But I really struggle with the "it's caused by racism" explanation.

[Barrister]

Former head of RT was allegedly murdered by russian agents in the US one day before he was set to speak with the US DOJ.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jasonleopold/putins-media-czar-was-murdered-just-before-meeting-feds?utm_term=.itwM4NKBx4#.xhQQb9EZ3b

[Valmy]

Buzzfeed 

That's is a pretty crazy story.

[Valmy]

I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood with highly ranked school.  The neighborhood is probably just barely majority white, with substantial numbers of east and south asians.  And based on my kids school concerts, I don't think there's a single black student there.

There are significant social problems in certain ethnic communities.  Somali Canadians are not having a lot of success.  The issues with First Nations Canadians are well reported.  But I really struggle with the "it's caused by racism" explanation.

Over here we have the remarkable success of Nigerian Americans (among others) as well. So then that does have the hopeful message that perhaps our current institutions can function once we correct past injustices.

Though it is rarely portrayed that way. And of course immigrants from a country so far away tend to self-select. The dysfunctional Nigerians probably immigrate to more easily accessible places.

But still.

[derspiess]

The dysfunctional Nigerians

Wasn't that a late 70s punk band?

[Valmy]

I hear they were huge in Burkina Faso.

[mongers]

Is one of the likely few books Donald Trump has read, a biography of Hitler?

[Barrister]

I hear they were huge in Burkina Faso.

They pulled in huge crowds in Ouagadougou.

[HVC]

I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood with highly ranked school.  The neighborhood is probably just barely majority white, with substantial numbers of east and south asians.  And based on my kids school concerts, I don't think there's a single black student there.

There are significant social problems in certain ethnic communities.  Somali Canadians are not having a lot of success.  The issues with First Nations Canadians are well reported.  But I really struggle with the "it's caused by racism" explanation.

Over here we have the remarkable success of Nigerian Americans (among others) as well. So then that does have the hopeful message that perhaps our current institutions can function once we correct past injustices.

Though it is rarely portrayed that way. And of course immigrants from a country so far away tend to self-select. The dysfunctional Nigerians probably immigrate to more easily accessible places.

But still.

There's a split here (well, at least Hamilton where I grew up, and Toronto where I live) between African black people, and new world black people (specifically NA born, but also some islanders like Jamaicans). The Africans really look down on the homegrown black community.

[Malthus]

I live in a nice upper middle class neighborhood with highly ranked school.  The neighborhood is probably just barely majority white, with substantial numbers of east and south asians.  And based on my kids school concerts, I don't think there's a single black student there.

There are significant social problems in certain ethnic communities.  Somali Canadians are not having a lot of success.  The issues with First Nations Canadians are well reported.  But I really struggle with the "it's caused by racism" explanation.

Over here we have the remarkable success of Nigerian Americans (among others) as well. So then that does have the hopeful message that perhaps our current institutions can function once we correct past injustices.

Though it is rarely portrayed that way. And of course immigrants from a country so far away tend to self-select. The dysfunctional Nigerians probably immigrate to more easily accessible places.

But still.

Here, the stereotype at least is that Black Africans from certain countries do very well (particularly, Eretrians, Ethiopians and Nigerians) while others do poorly (Somalians); however, the major concern in Toronto is over Jamaicans. 

The problem with Jamaicans is that Jamaica has a very nasty subculture of violent gangs. The vast majority of Jamaicans actually do quite well here - but those tend to never make the news: what you hear about, is the tiny minority who commit gang violence.

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2012/11/03/most_torontonians_of_jamaican_descent_a_boon_to_the_city.html

Busting just one big Jamaican gang allegedly sent overall murder rates in Toronto plunging:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto-murders-drop-after-jamaica-based-gang-crackdown-1.1132109

This makes me think stuff like "Blacks are over-represented in violent crime" is more a matter of culture within the Black community in this particular city, than it is a matter caused essentially by White racism.

[Valmy]

Well it does, extreme levels of black violent crime, typically exist only in very specific areas yes? But I don't have any specific information. I mean supposedly in New York and LA things are cool now some small areas in St Louis, Baltimore, and Chicago are very dangerous. But I have never seen very selective crime stats broken down by area and all that before. They probably exist.

What exactly that means or what could therefore be done to help those areas I don't know.