What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Admiral Yi]

The first thought is that the descriptions are very biased (perhaps understandably so). The Rationalist description articulates how Rationalists like to see themselves; while the description of the Romantics is a collection of all the things that Rationalists find annoying or off-putting about the Romantic positions. IMO a better and more useful version of the model would describe both sides in terms they'd recognize and be willing to say "yeah that's fair, the represents my point of view" (and it's a limited number of people who are going to embrace "it's perfectly fine to lie" and "I think people who don't agree with me are evil and less than human" as the core values of their philosophy).

Bias means inaccurate, diverging from the truth.  It does not mean splitting the difference or pleasing everyone. I believe the romantic school is inferior. That's why I don't want to be a member. How can I possibly tell  someone their thinking is inferior and get a  response of "yeah that's fair?"

I'll also note that I believe the whole rudeness / respectful discourse thing is pure (and incorrect) bias. There are plenty of people who'd consider themselves to be in the Rationalist camp who are rude as fuck (some of them used to post here); and there are people who'd be in the Romantic side of things who are perfectly civil.

I think long departed poster throbby McVein is an example of someone with rationalist  pretensions who was unpleasant to    deal with. I'm  defending my concept of rationalism, not his.  Romantic is not synonymous with the left/woke/progressive (though I think there is a depressingly high correlation on this board).  Joe Squeeze is all those things I mentioned but quite civil and limits his discourse to the boundaries of the dialectic.  That's why I've praised him on several  ocassions.  Otto von Bismark is a romantic on the right. You're an interesting case study Jacob. My read on you is that you were a romantic in your salad days, you're transitioning to rationalism, but also trying to remain loyal to your friends and allies, and struggling to square that  circle. I wish you luck

My main point for now, however, is that one of the biggest weaknesses of the Rationalist camp is their ability to delude themselves and exclude data from their mental models, while convincing themselves that they are in fact being perfectly logical and rational. The classic example of that is the stereotype of the highly educated engineer who is profoundly confident that they're experts in fields they know little about, because they've logically reasoned themselves to a conclusion based on a small handful of facts they've selected; and it's basically just lucky coincidence that the only rational conclusion lines up with the engineers self-interest.

The beauty of the dialectic is you have to concede the *possibility* you are wrong to enter it. A  counter argument that is not refuted or conceded is proof you are playing a different game.

[Admiral Yi]

Hillay, I think that covers your issues, yeah?

[Tamas]

https://www.axios.com/2025/11/09/deal-to-end-government-shutdown-in-reach

Senate Democrats on Sunday indicated they are ready to advance a package of bills that could end the government shutdown, multiple sources told Axios.

Why it matters: It is the most significant movement toward a bipartisan breakthrough in the talks to re-open the government in over a month.

~ At least 10 Senate Democrats are expected to support a procedural motion to advance a package of spending bills and a short term funding measure, multiple sources from both parties told Axios.

~ The deal would include a promised vote on extending Obamacare tax credits in December, the sources said.

A "promised vote" is what you got out of this? A promise?! The incompetence or complicity is just... there is no bottom, is there? 

If this is true the Dems prove they are just looking for an excuse to get out of having to work for it, and just want to hang on to their job as His Golden Majesty's Opposition.

[Admiral Yi]

Hillay, I think that covers your issues, yeah?

Maybe not. Who would I consider a rationalist that is not?

Raz? He's a work in progress.

[Zoupa]

Civil discourse.

It's uncivil discourse justified on the *universal* principle of reciprocity. I don't feel the moral obligation to grant you more civility than you grant me.  Tit for tat.  Don't start shit, don't take shit.

Sounds like justification. Here's what I think: you're not as awesome as you think you are. You're not as rational, smart and logical. You're just another dipshit, like the rest of us.

[The Minsky Moment]

We constitute two broad camps guided by two different moral codes.  The camp I identify with i call the rationalists.  We believe in cost/benefit analyses, weighing of conflicting principles, and civil discourse as a means of resolving differences, and the primacy of reason, logic, facts and evidence as instruments in that discourse.

Yet when I pointed out that NATO behavior is rational from a cost-benefit perspective, your objection was based on fairness.

[Admiral Yi]

Sounds like justification. Here's what I think: you're not as awesome as you think you are. You're not as rational, smart and logical. You're just another dipshit, like the rest of us.

Fascinating.  I'd love to hear how you came to those conclusions.

[Admiral Yi]

Yet when I pointed out that NATO behavior is rational from a cost-benefit perspective, your objection was based on fairness.

Game theory teaches individually rational choices can lead to societally suboptimal outcomes.

[Josquius]

I wonder if it's the shrinking of the board.
We are getting cabin fever.

Over the years we've lost people but it seems to have reached new highs in recent years.

This is leading to a lot more of this kind of arguing over arguing.
It used to be someone gets called a dick or whatever and that's it. I can only recall some incidents getting really extreme that pushed things to this stage and beyond.

But lately yes. Lots of people losing their cool and exploding about stuff. Including myself with one person being a massive cock.

I dunno.
It's sad. Maybe it means we care about this place and don't want it to dwindle even more which sadly leads to behaviours that make it more likely?

I do hope languish continues on. It's been a omnipressnt for probably over half of my life now. Other places just haven't had the staying power and with mass social medias toxic turn this past decade I have disengaged with it ever more.

Should this meta stuff be shunted elsewhere so we can get back to commenting on society at large circling the drain? - hey... Is there a connection there....

[Zoupa]

Sounds like justification. Here's what I think: you're not as awesome as you think you are. You're not as rational, smart and logical. You're just another dipshit, like the rest of us.

Fascinating.  I'd love to hear how you came to those conclusions.

Evidence. You insulted me on several occasions and have lied repeatedly. Yet you're very generous in finding justifications for yourself in order to keep thinking you're in the superior category of poster you made up in your mind. All in all it's a little sad my dude.

[Admiral Yi]

Evidence. You insulted me on several occasions and have lied repeatedly. Yet you're very generous in finding justifications for yourself in order to keep thinking you're in the superior category of poster you made up in your mind. All in all it's a little sad my dude.

I grant each and every person the right to respond to unprovoked insult with a corresponding insult, not just myself.

You accused me of lying once.  I entered into the arena of the dialectic and explained why in my mind I did not lie.  You exited  the arena, which, by the rules of the dialectic, is a concession. therefore,  I have not lied.

[Zoupa]

Congratulations, you gaslight yourself into thinking you're a very special boy. 

[Admiral Yi]

Congratulations, you gaslight yourself into thinking you're a very special boy. 

To repeat your thesis in response to counter argument demonstrates a poor understanding of the dynamics of the dialectic.

[Zoupa]

See? Even MORE proof of how specially smart you are. I'm proud of you. 

[Admiral Yi]

Thanks.