What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Oexmelin]

This is going to upset some people, but I'm still trying to call "balls and strikes" on Trump.  I don't like the man, think his Presidency the first time around was bad, think it could be historically awful the second time around - but this does not offend me.

It's the language of "foundational principles".  Those principles are admittedly noble and worth aspiring to.  But the language quoted above seemingly admits that the US has NOT always lived up to those principles.  That was a key rhetorical flourish to both Lincoln and MLK - that America should live up to its own principles.

As long as a history lesson remains committed to being "accurate" and "honest" - I also seem value in trying to ensure that a patriotic message is also passed on.


Now all of that being said - I think this EO will wind up being 100% meaningless and is just for messaging.

I suspected this would be your take. I'd be much more sympathetic to it if I thought the Trump government is the kind of government where you can "pick and choose". But that's not the case. It's part of a concerted effort and shouldn't be read in a highly selective vaccuum, where you'd dispassionately weighs the pros and cons of infrastructure investment amidst the slightly more concerning dismantlement of democratic norms.

I'd even argue that this sort of picking and choosing is precisely why that sort of creeping authoritarianism is so insidious and so dangerous. It's manufacturing isolated redeeming points that continuously move the line about what is acceptable.

This EO is messaging in the way that propaganda is messaging. It has actual effects in the world, and sustains and frames the much more material elements of policy. All of this is dog whistle for censoring very specific content related to slavery, and re-framing them in really egregious way so that, for instance, you shouldn't really talk about slavery all that much. And if you do, you call it "migration". Or you frame it through really superficial comparisons with other countries. America not only needs to be exceptional - in the sense of "different". It needs to be best at everything; its mistakes, lighter than anyone else's mistakes; its successes, better than everyone else's successes. This is the kind of moronic take that produces such exchanges as Premier Ford being told it was offensive to refuse the magnanimous offer of joining the US. Yeah, it was on Fox. But Fox has a considerable role in Trump world. 

It's the kind of world where critical history not only has no place, but is, in fact, to be shunned. Denounced. Hunted down. It is already happening, with conservative parents taking over school boards, censoring books, denouncing teachers, encouraging their kids to denounce anti-American rhetoric in the classroom. There's no debate about the merit of this or that approach. There is censorship, and denunciations, and cutting off resources.

FFS, a friend of mine runs a historic plantation in Louisiana and he gets visitors complaining there's too much talk of slavery. In a plantation. Their funding is in jeopardy. Because of "messaging".

If you think that Trumpian's view of patriotism is both "honest" and "accurate" (and that, somehow, can be ennobling, because yeah, that's the point of history...), and therefore, amenable to a nicely nuanced, take on patriotism, you really haven't been paying attention. This isn't a Conservative president expressing his own view of American history in a political setting. It's someone signalling they are ready to use the apparatus of the state to hunt down those who undermine America through their lies.

[Neil]

And it was the inevitable reaction to the 1619 Project. 

[Valmy]

And it was the inevitable reaction to the 1619 Project. 

I don't know man. I think there are several different ones one can react to that.

[garbon]

The only thing I find upsetting about that BB is the idea that we are ending radical indoctrination. We are already teaching history based on those ideas. So the lie pisses me off, not the idea that those principles are some kind of upsetting thing he is introducing.

To be devil's advocate, I don't know how history is taught these days anywhere, but I know how history was taught in NYC in 1990ies.  Let's just say that cynicism and self-hatred were the rule rather than the exception.  I get that US did a lot of immoral stuff, but frankly that's a rule rather than the exception, geopolitics is not for idealists.  I think US did a lot more good with the power it acquired than most countries in similar situations have done, or would've done.  Uncritical acceptance of one's country's actions is obviously not good, but so is unrestrained self-bashing.

True, in high school I basically learned the US was one of the most terrible countries.

[viper37]

The only thing I find upsetting about that BB is the idea that we are ending radical indoctrination. We are already teaching history based on those ideas. So the lie pisses me off, not the idea that those principles are some kind of upsetting thing he is introducing.

To be devil's advocate, I don't know how history is taught these days anywhere, but I know how history was taught in NYC in 1990ies.  Let's just say that cynicism and self-hatred were the rule rather than the exception.  I get that US did a lot of immoral stuff, but frankly that's a rule rather than the exception, geopolitics is not for idealists.  I think US did a lot more good with the power it acquired than most countries in similar situations have done, or would've done.  Uncritical acceptance of one's country's actions is obviously not good, but so is unrestrained self-bashing.

We don't see that online from the average American we cross path with... Jingoism seems to be the norm rather than the exception.  During the Iraq war, more people rallied in favor of Freedom Fries than against.  Don't know about the Cabernet boycott though.

[Oexmelin]

No. It was the inevitable reaction of Conservative media seizing on the 1619 project to amplify their political goals. By that token, Trump was the inevitable reaction to Obama.

Conservatives have decided that even the mildest forms of liberalism is an existential threat. Not just an opposing ideology. They will pick anything that allows them an opening, a breach to exploit. They will manufacture a threat out of the most marginal of phenomenon. Remember Critical Race theory? Some of you seem to think that by doing nothing, or little, you'd deprive Conservatives from their rhetorical resources. I think that is delusional. The slightest thing will be blown out of proportion in the service of those political goals - if only because they have a relentless propaganda apparatus, with no equivalent on the other side.

[Barrister]

I suspected this would be your take. I'd be much more sympathetic to it if I thought the Trump government is the kind of government where you can "pick and choose". But that's not the case. It's part of a concerted effort and shouldn't be read in a highly selective vaccuum, where you'd dispassionately weighs the pros and cons of infrastructure investment amidst the slightly more concerning dismantlement of democratic norms.

This sentiment just pisses me off, to be honest.

How many times must I say I am anti-Trump?  I did not want him to win in any of the three elections this fool has run in.  I am certainly not going "Well I disapprove of his Bart-killing policies, but I approve of his Selma-killing policy" and saying it makes sense to support Trump.

On so many issues the stances Trump takes are absolutely disqualifying.  From threatening to withdraw from NATO, to trying to overturn the 2020 election, to being impeached twice, to be an adjudicated rapist, to a history of stiffing contractors...

But just because I want Trump defeated doesn't mean I must close my eyes and mind and say that anything and everything he does is absolutely wrong all of the time.

[Barrister]

No. It was the inevitable reaction of Conservative media seizing on the 1619 project to amplify their political goals. By that token, Trump was the inevitable reaction to Obama.

Conservatives have decided that even the mildest forms of liberalism is an existential threat. Not just an opposing ideology. They will pick anything that allows them an opening, a breach to exploit. They will manufacture a threat out of the most marginal of phenomenon. Remember Critical Race theory? Some of you seem to think that by doing nothing, or little, you'd deprive Conservatives from their rhetorical resources. I think that is delusional. The slightest thing will be blown out of proportion in the service of those political goals - if only because they have a relentless propaganda apparatus, with no equivalent on the other side.

See, I think this kind of Manichean thinking did as much as anything to promote Trump.

The idea that nothing on Fox News can possibly be true, or that nothing in the "mainstream news" can possibly be false.  That nothing Trump does can have any merit, while nothing Biden did was possibly wrong.

Conservatives are not a monolithic bunch (and for that matter Trump isn't much of a conservative anyways).

[Razgovory]

The only thing I find upsetting about that BB is the idea that we are ending radical indoctrination. We are already teaching history based on those ideas. So the lie pisses me off, not the idea that those principles are some kind of upsetting thing he is introducing.

To be devil's advocate, I don't know how history is taught these days anywhere, but I know how history was taught in NYC in 1990ies.  Let's just say that cynicism and self-hatred were the rule rather than the exception.  I get that US did a lot of immoral stuff, but frankly that's a rule rather than the exception, geopolitics is not for idealists.  I think US did a lot more good with the power it acquired than most countries in similar situations have done, or would've done.  Uncritical acceptance of one's country's actions is obviously not good, but so is unrestrained self-bashing.

True, in high school I basically learned the US was one of the most terrible countries.

Yeah, me too.  You'd think the rest of the world would be arming against us or something.

[Valmy]

True, in high school I basically learned the US was one of the most terrible countries.

Ok well I wasn't there.

I am highly skeptical that what the curriculum was designed around that though. Besides I seem to recall you had a much higher opinion of the country and conservative values when you first joined Languish. It was only later you decided to flee the country.

[Oexmelin]

BB:

I know you are anti-Trump. I believe you. My point is that being anti-Trump isn't simply being against the specific individual Donald Trump. It's about recognizing that we are in a political moment that goes beyond Trump.  Things which, in previous times, could be up for a rational debate ("Is it good that national history high school programmes foster a sense of community?") can no longer be treated as such. To treat them as if the rest didn't exist is missing the forest for the tree.

[DGuller]

I suspected this would be your take. I'd be much more sympathetic to it if I thought the Trump government is the kind of government where you can "pick and choose". But that's not the case. It's part of a concerted effort and shouldn't be read in a highly selective vaccuum, where you'd dispassionately weighs the pros and cons of infrastructure investment amidst the slightly more concerning dismantlement of democratic norms.

This sentiment just pisses me off, to be honest.

How many times must I say I am anti-Trump?  I did not want him to win in any of the three elections this fool has run in.  I am certainly not going "Well I disapprove of his Bart-killing policies, but I approve of his Selma-killing policy" and saying it makes sense to support Trump.

On so many issues the stances Trump takes are absolutely disqualifying.  From threatening to withdraw from NATO, to trying to overturn the 2020 election, to being impeached twice, to be an adjudicated rapist, to a history of stiffing contractors...

But just because I want Trump defeated doesn't mean I must close my eyes and mind and say that anything and everything he does is absolutely wrong all of the time.

And I think your approach is the right one.  When you're outraged about everything, you're outraged about nothing.  Likewise, when you criticize everything, you criticize nothing, and your chance of seeding doubts into people who disagree with you goes down to nothing.  During Biden's presidency, how many of you heard the reflexive bashing of Biden on every fucking thing and then started reexamining your beliefs?

[DGuller]

True, in high school I basically learned the US was one of the most terrible countries.

Ok well I wasn't there.

I am highly skeptical that what the curriculum was designed around that though. Besides I seem to recall you had a much higher opinion of the country and conservative values when you first joined Languish. It was only later you decided to flee the country.

It could be very regional.  I imagine that high schools in the South taught history a bit differently than NYC.

[Valmy]

Yeah, me too.  You'd think the rest of the world would be arming against us or something.

So if I look up the curriculum for the State of Missouri from your time there, it will be an indoctrination scheme on how to get you to hate America? I don't know man. I am skeptical you are remembering this correctly.

But I wasn't there.

[Valmy]

True, in high school I basically learned the US was one of the most terrible countries.

Ok well I wasn't there.

I am highly skeptical that what the curriculum was designed around that though. Besides I seem to recall you had a much higher opinion of the country and conservative values when you first joined Languish. It was only later you decided to flee the country.

It could be very regional.  I imagine that high schools in the South taught history a bit differently than NYC.

I was in very left wing and Liberal Austin Texas taking the most nerdy AP History classes. It wasn't like I was in some small town learning history from the football coach.

I certainly learned a lot of the bad things the United States did, I just remember there being much more nuanced than you are saying. And also, hey look! We freed the slaves and saved the world in WWII and had a cool Constitution.

Also: Raz is also saying this and he is from Missouri so...