What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Barrister]

What we have now is one party that pays lip service to conservative values, but another party that actively disavows such values.

What else would you have me do?

Reluctantly support the Democrats until the GOP have a not incompetent morally bankrupt leader, and the party establishment does not support and enable him. The moment the GOP has reasonable leadership, go back home.

You really don't know me, do you.

I've often had issues with my own party - the Federal PCs of the 80s-90s, the leadership of Stockwell Day in the early oughts, the Alberta PCs until  recently.  The answer is NEVER to give up on your convictions and support the political left.  The answer is, one way or another, to fight for the change you want to see within the political right.

In Canada of course that could and often did mean supporting alternative parties.  In the US in 2016 maybe it would have meant supporting Evan McMullin, or just in general supporting #NeverTrump-type conservative candidates and movements.

[Malthus]

Party is clearly more important than principle.

What I find funny is that people pretend like they are standing on principle, when the principle is actually "Conservative values", which is not a principle at all - it is an identification with a party, especially given that whatever ACTUAL principles Beebs might imagine is meant by "conservative", the Republican Party no more represents them than the Dems.

And if those "principles" are actually things like respect for western democratic ideals in a general sense, it is no contest - the Dems, right now, are far, far, FAR more closely aligned with them than the shitshow semi-fascist demagague worshipping Republicans.

This is what I don't get.

I can see backing some traditional conservative principles - fiscal restraint, not undertaking excessive social experimentation, the importance of tradition and custom, upholding the values of Western high Civilization, belief in objective notions of truth and decency.

Thing is, the current Republicans represent none of that. Like, at all. They are actively the opposite of all that. 

[Berkut]

Party is clearly more important than principle.

What I find funny is that people pretend like they are standing on principle, when the principle is actually "Conservative values", which is not a principle at all - it is an identification with a party, especially given that whatever ACTUAL principles Beebs might imagine is meant by "conservative", the Republican Party no more represents them than the Dems.

And if those "principles" are actually things like respect for western democratic ideals in a general sense, it is no contest - the Dems, right now, are far, far, FAR more closely aligned with them than the shitshow semi-fascist demagague worshipping Republicans.

This is what I don't get.

I can see backing some traditional conservative principles - fiscal restraint, not undertaking excessive social experimentation, the importance of tradition and custom, upholding the values of Western high Civilization, belief in objective notions of truth and decency.

Thing is, the current Republicans represent none of that. Like, at all. They are actively the opposite of all that. 

Exactly.

Beebs claims that he has to support Trump because he "pays lip service" to some vague values that he labels "conservative".

But the thing is, there are more values to be valued than just conservative ones. In most normal  circumstances, both parties value them, so adhering to one over the other makes sense - the values both parties espouse do not differentiate.

Now that is not the case. The modern right is not just only paying lip service to his precious conservitard (has there EVER been a more appropriate time for that label) values, they are actively supporting values that anyone, right or left, should find abhorrent. Intolerance, greed, robber baron levels of economic imbalance, embrace of foreign enemies. hubris, denial of merit and intelligence, contempt for education.

THis is the party that the spiceys and beebs oh so dramatically decide they have to support, because they "pay lip service" to their precious conservative principles, while shitting on basic human principles.

It is why they are, to be perfectly blunt, all about party, not principle.

[Jacob]

You really don't know me, do you.

I've often had issues with my own party - the Federal PCs of the 80s-90s, the leadership of Stockwell Day in the early oughts, the Alberta PCs until  recently.  The answer is NEVER to give up on your convictions and support the political left.  The answer is, one way or another, to fight for the change you want to see within the political right.

In Canada of course that could and often did mean supporting alternative parties.  In the US in 2016 maybe it would have meant supporting Evan McMullin, or just in general supporting #NeverTrump-type conservative candidates and movements.

Oh no, I do know you don't worry. But you asked me what I'd have you do - and that is to rate decency and the integrity of democratic institutions above team loyalty.

[Eddie Teach]

Honestly, Trump isn't that far off from a normal Republican politician. His main distinction is his lack of competence.

[HVC]

Honestly, Trump isn't that far off from a normal Republican politician. His main distinction is his lack of competence.

Besides some more public affairs and Kidd gloves with Russia nothing policy wise would be that different with another candidate.

[garbon]

The kind of falsehoods that support Trump.

[Barrister]

Honestly, Trump isn't that far off from a normal Republican politician. His main distinction is his lack of competence.

And that, by far, is my biggest gripe with Trump.  The man just isn't borderline competent for the job.  This is rarely an issue in candidates for high office.  Going back for the past number of elections - I may not have liked the candidates for any party, but how many could you just say they weren't even qualified for?

Beyond that - I also really do not at all agree with passing a massive tax cut that explodes the deficit - although if it was paid for I'd be all for it.  I also do not at all agree with Trump's protectionist impulses, but so far not too much has happened on that front.

Oh - and Trump being a Russian stooge is really Not Cool as well.

But beyond that - the GOPs impulses and priorities have been generally correct.  It's just the implementation that has been a huge fucking disaster - but that goes back to the first point: Trump's incompetence.

[Berkut]

Honestly, Trump isn't that far off from a normal Republican politician. His main distinction is his lack of competence.

And that, by far, is my biggest gripe with Trump.  The man just isn't borderline competent for the job.  This is rarely an issue in candidates for high office.  Going back for the past number of elections - I may not have liked the candidates for any party, but how many could you just say they weren't even qualified for?

Beyond that - I also really do not at all agree with passing a massive tax cut that explodes the deficit - although if it was paid for I'd be all for it.  I also do not at all agree with Trump's protectionist impulses, but so far not too much has happened on that front.

Oh - and Trump being a Russian stooge is really Not Cool as well.

But beyond that - the GOPs impulses and priorities have been generally correct.  It's just the implementation that has been a huge fucking disaster - but that goes back to the first point: Trump's incompetence.

Building walls agaisnt immigrants and embracing bigotry is "generally correct"?

Gotcha.

[Barrister]

Building walls agaisnt immigrants and embracing bigotry is "generally correct"?

Gotcha.

Nothing wrong with increasing border security.  And the way you all have practically de facto accepted illegal immigrants in society is just plain crazy.

The bigotry is 100% from Trump though - and enormously harmful long term to the party.  You don't see Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Marco Rubio, or other mainstream Republicans talking like that.

[Berkut]

Building walls agaisnt immigrants and embracing bigotry is "generally correct"?

Gotcha.

Nothing wrong with increasing border security.  And the way you all have practically de facto accepted illegal immigrants in society is just plain crazy.

The bigotry is 100% from Trump though - and enormously harmful long term to the party.  You don't see Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Marco Rubio, or other mainstream Republicans talking like that.

Bullshit - they don't get a pass on supporting Trump for his bigotry, and this is the party that has been working overtime over the last decade to disenfranchise black voters. This is the party that is exemplified by the propaganda and hate of Fox News. Trump doesn't exist as some kind of outside force in the Republican Party, he is a result of concerted propaganda and those "generally correct" culture war you love so much.

This is YOUR PARTY.

Like I said - you find bigotry, hate, populism, and semi-fascist embrace of a demagogue "generally correct". Gotcha.

[HVC]

The kind of falsehoods that support Trump.

Tax cuts for the rich, check. Trying to end healthcare,check. Removing environmental and economic regulations double check. Hell its not like other republicans would have treated immigrants and dreamers any better.

I guess if he gets NAFTA killed that one is one him.

[DGuller]

Trump has enabled the Democrats to kick the can down the road of dealing with the left-wing Bernie revolt during the 2016 election. I guess that is good since I was worried my side would lose such a confrontation.

But I worry about the period from 2006-2010 when the Democrats were swept to power by virtue of being not-Bush and suffered from a lack of coherence. Also there was the fact that a large portion of the people who voted for them for being 'not-Bush' were not really pro-Democratic agenda at all. So they revolted shortly afterwards. It seems likely that something similar will happen in the near future, without the Democrats ever dealing with our deep divisions and issues during our time in the political wilderness. I mean even if we do not end up winning we are clearly going to grain a lot of ground soon.

Granted being a party of contradictions and incoherence is the Democrat Way(tm).

Do tell, what can Democrats do to "deal with our deep divisions"?  Specific things, not empty platitudes?

[garbon]

Hell its not like other republicans would have treated immigrants and dreamers any better.

Strange then that George W Bush wanted to pass such a reform. And half the members of the gang of 8 are all well known Republican names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(immigration)

[HVC]

Hell its not like other republicans would have treated immigrants and dreamers any better.

Strange then that George W Bush wanted to pass such a reform. And half the members of the gang of 8 are all well known Republican names.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_of_Eight_(immigration)

So I take it you agree with my other points then?

And I never thought of republicans as soft on illegals,but maybe I'm misinformed.