What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Fate]

Watching Republicans go on TV last night to shake their heads over Trump, it's like watching Wile E Coyote pumping his legs furiously after going over the cliff, not realizing there is nothing below.  Again and again, I heard the talking point - condemning the President for his statements, expressing exasperation over his lack of discipline, but expressing support for his "policy agenda"

Problem is, it's Trump.  He has no policy agenda.  The craziness isn't a distraction from the main event.  It is the main event. These GOP guys have either (1) gotten so disoriented trying to defend Trump's mishegas they can no longer see the man for what it is, or (2) can't stop intoning the talking points intended to nudge Trump back onto track even though they realize it will never happen.

All they care about is replacing Kennedy with an originalist or god forbid, replacing Breyer or Ginsberg with a 45 year old Gorsuch Mk. 2. It'll probably happen too. Then all of the damage Donald does to Congressional Republicans will have been worth it.

[Tamas]

Watching Republicans go on TV last night to shake their heads over Trump, it's like watching Wile E Coyote pumping his legs furiously after going over the cliff, not realizing there is nothing below.  Again and again, I heard the talking point - condemning the President for his statements, expressing exasperation over his lack of discipline, but expressing support for his "policy agenda"

Problem is, it's Trump.  He has no policy agenda.  The craziness isn't a distraction from the main event.  It is the main event. These GOP guys have either (1) gotten so disoriented trying to defend Trump's mishegas they can no longer see the man for what it is, or (2) can't stop intoning the talking points intended to nudge Trump back onto track even though they realize it will never happen.

I guess its like Brexit for the Tories over here: by laying down for the fringe radical elements of his supporters, they have emboldened and strengthened them. Their self-destructive paths are the new norm for the party, and this now puts them in a hopeless situation: if they break with the extremists they could still save the country but that also means they break with the party and destroy their own ambitions. Surely no self-respecting politician will do that! Instead, they need to cling on, and hope when the country collapses and the dust settles, they can pick up some pieces from the ground.

[Malthus]

Watching Republicans go on TV last night to shake their heads over Trump, it's like watching Wile E Coyote pumping his legs furiously after going over the cliff, not realizing there is nothing below.  Again and again, I heard the talking point - condemning the President for his statements, expressing exasperation over his lack of discipline, but expressing support for his "policy agenda"

Problem is, it's Trump.  He has no policy agenda.  The craziness isn't a distraction from the main event.  It is the main event. These GOP guys have either (1) gotten so disoriented trying to defend Trump's mishegas they can no longer see the man for what it is, or (2) can't stop intoning the talking points intended to nudge Trump back onto track even though they realize it will never happen.

Or (3) mouth platitudes intended to deflect blame for Trump's latest craziness from themselves, while failing to do anything about the man for fear of alienating his base.

The basic problem (no pun intended) appears to be that the GOP seemingly can't win without the active help from the White Power types, who have in consequence apparently gained a stranglehold on the party. Whether this is true of people simply think it is true, makes no difference.

[Jacob]

Two things. First of all, yes, chaos on the streets helped Hitler come to power.

Street fighting certainly was something that happened as Hitler rose to power. I'm not sure it's accurate to conclude that if non-Nazis had refrained from street fighting, Hitler's ascent would've been avoided.

Personally I think the complicity of the non-Nazi right and the vacillation of the moderates, in particular where those held institutional power, are explanatory factors in addition to the short comings of the hard left.

Secondly, the SA was street fighting the far left groups, not the liberals. Just as the American nazis would end up fighting the far left if these kind of things are to continue and escalate, and it would be one of the two that rises to power once people have enough of the ensuing chaos.

Here's the thing - the street fighting is used to provide a sense of security to thugs victimizing communities. Once there was no street response to the Nazis you got things like Kristallnacht. Had there somehow been the possibility of a robust physical response Krisallnacht would not have happened, IMO.

Street fighting is not what's going to provide any kind of solution - that will have to come through the political arena. In the meantime, though, the Nazis will march and physically intimidate and show as much strength they're capable of - and if there's no response they'll neatly move on to harassing and beating and murdering their preferred targets, burning their places of worship etc. They may not attack white moderates, because they require their complicity and their "let's not over react" political impulses, but if you're black/ Jewish/ a non-white immigrant (or an East European one in the UK)/ queer/ et. al. then you'll be in physical danger.

If you wish to see the spectre of chaos in the streets recede, use your political influence to counter Nazi infiltration of political and social institutions such that these institutions provide adequate protection of the Nazi's target groups.

[Jacob]

Democracies are not invulnerable, and they can be set up and ran in a bad way. Keeping them stable and serving individual freedom requires care from the majority.

Yup, so let the majority of us kick out the Nazis who clearly operate on a program of subverting and destroying Democratic institutions.

[Jacob]

Or (3) mouth platitudes intended to deflect blame for Trump's latest craziness from themselves, while failing to do anything about the man for fear of alienating his base.

The basic problem (no pun intended) appears to be that the GOP seemingly can't win without the active help from the White Power types, who have in consequence apparently gained a stranglehold on the party. Whether this is true of people simply think it is true, makes no difference.

The question then becomes, will all the independents and moderate Republicans follow that lead and blame "radical leftists" and continue to support Trump. The human impulse to wring hands, blame "both sides", and continue to support your own team as it goes off the rails is pretty powerful.

[Malthus]

Ideally, what we would have would be the cops protecting the Nazis from crowds of angry citizens.

No violence - because the pitiful Nazis are protected from physical harm and allowed to express themselves, if they dare being openly mocked and held to ridicule, by cops (preferably including lots of Black, Gay, Muslim and Jewish cops).

[Tamas]

Democracies are not invulnerable, and they can be set up and ran in a bad way. Keeping them stable and serving individual freedom requires care from the majority.

Yup, so let the majority of us kick out the Nazis who clearly operate on a program of subverting and destroying Democratic institutions.

But surely you see that wishing for a society where minority opinions are beaten up for speaking out is not exactly democratic, or liberal?

[Tamas]

Ideally, what we would have would be the cops protecting the Nazis from crowds of angry citizens.

No violence - because the pitiful Nazis are protected from physical harm and allowed to express themselves, if they dare being openly mocked and held to ridicule, by cops (preferably including lots of Black, Gay, Muslim and Jewish cops).

Exactly. Protest them, and if they become violent have the police handle them.

If the police refuses to handle them that's a different problem that needs addressing, but the solution for that is not civilians beating them up instead.

[Fate]

Ideally, what we would have would be the cops protecting the Nazis from crowds of angry citizens.

No violence - because the pitiful Nazis are protected from physical harm and allowed to express themselves, if they dare being openly mocked and held to ridicule, by cops (preferably including lots of Black, Gay, Muslim and Jewish cops).

The Nazis don't need protection from citizens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CaRLSbEQjU

We need protection from Nazis.

[Jacob]

Ideally, what we would have would be the cops protecting the Nazis from crowds of angry citizens.

Ideally yes, though this requires enough angry citizens who think punching a Nazi is a good idea. Otherwise there's no need for police protection.

No violence - because the pitiful Nazis are protected from physical harm and allowed to express themselves, if they dare being openly mocked and held to ridicule, by cops (preferably including lots of Black, Gay, Muslim and Jewish cops).

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction in your reasoning there, Malthus. Why would the Nazis require police protection from the citizenry if there was no threat of violence? If there is not threat of violence from the angry citizenry, the Nazis will - if past form is any indication whatsoever and I think it is - gleefully inflict violence on the angry citizenry.

I mean, I do agree with you that the ideal response is one where Nazis are subject to such universal non-violent mockery that they hide in shame. However, at this moment in time I think we've moved a bit past that point in some cases, at least in the US. It's a good starting point though.

[grumbler]

Tampax, you sound suspiciously like someone who likes liberal democracy and rule of law. Just sayin'.

Okay, you need to stop being an idiot. You've been getting a free pass for too long.

Gratuitous and frankly out of place.

I don't think so. He's been skirting around with some racist and sexist notions as of late. And yes, he's lovable and funny so doesn't matter as much as we rarely need to take his points seriously but enough is enough.

This was very badly timed by you though, as he happens to be right. The police's monopoly on violence is the cornerstone of the rule of law, the more free a society is, the more true this is.

I don't care. His dickishness has pissed me off.

Particularly given that I was not arguing for people to be violent nor that I was pleased people were getting violent.

Your thin skin is amusing, considering how you like to dish it out.

Particularly when the statement you objected to was on saying that Tamas sounds "suspiciously like someone who likes liberal democracy and rule of law."  Getting your panties in a twist over this statement implies that either
(1) you don't like liberal democracy and rule of law and hate to be reminded that others do, or
(2) you don't think Tamas likes liberal democracy and rule of law, and are irritated that someone else does think so.

Frankly, I find both of those implications to be highly unlikely.  The conclusion, then, is that your little microtantrum is, indeed, "gratuitous and frankly out of place."

[garbon]

Well, g, you are free to your opinion. For now, you still live in a free country.

Btw, option 3 is that I wasn't actually pushing for an illiberal society without rule of law so Brain's snarky aside about Tamas wanting that (as differing from my opinion) was off the mark.

[viper37]

Problem is, it's Trump.  He has no policy agenda.  The craziness isn't a distraction from the main event.  It is the main event. These GOP guys have either (1) gotten so disoriented trying to defend Trump's mishegas they can no longer see the man for what it is, or (2) can't stop intoning the talking points intended to nudge Trump back onto track even though they realize it will never happen.

I believe Pruitt is secretly dismantling the EPA, from what I've read last week-end.  Transgenders are banned from the army, at least in a public statement.  Lawsuits from the government in civil rigths cases have been dropped, or the government has stopped defending some practices to promote equalization.  Affirmative action will be a thing of the past by the end of the year.

So, yeah, Trump is a crazy loud mouth. But behind the scenes, there are people dismantling the Federal government, and that pleases the Republicans.

[Jacob]

But surely you see that wishing for a society where minority opinions are beaten up for speaking out is not exactly democratic, or liberal?

I am not wishing for a society where minority opinions are beaten up for speaking out. However, I'm willing to compromise purity of principle to resist Nazis specifically because they have a track record (not to mention a stated policy) of subverting Democratic processes and assaulting the vulnerable.

My preference, of course, is for the state to adequately protect the vulnerable that are targeted by Nazis and white supremacists but where the state falls short, I am perfectly fine with organized community self-defense.