Your Papers, Please: The Voter Fraud MEGATHREAD

[Hamilcar]

Oh and as for a national ID? Even here in the United Kingdom of Please Watch All That I Do on CCTV, the populace wasn't having that.

That's because they're a bunch of weirdos. National ID is uncontroversial in most parts of the world.

[Hamilcar]

Not really, as it's exactly the same in the UK and I'd guess some other states to.

Yeah, but in the UK you probably also have to bring your sword and prove your patrilineal descent from William the Conqueror to vote.

[Hamilcar]

Anyway, sufficient hijacking. Do we need an "OMG it's just two steps from National ID to death camps!!11" thread?

[The Brain]

Not really, as it's exactly the same in the UK and I'd guess some other states to.

Yeah, but in the UK you probably also have to bring your sword and prove your patrilineal descent from William the Conqueror to vote.

Not really, but roughly 30% are still rotten boroughs.

[Malthus]

Bottom line, I think, is for the US to reform the voter registration system fairly it would need a well administered national ID program of some sort. If that's not in place then any call for ID to vote basically boils down to partisan attempts at voter disenfranchisement.

I'm not sure why. We use the following system here in Canada, which has a bunch of different ID options, and as far as I know it is completely uncontroversial.

There are three options to prove your identity and address


1) Show one of these pieces of ID

•your driver's licence
•your provincial or territorial ID card
•any other government card with your photo, name and current address

You can use ID with your mailing address if that address appears in your voter registration file. If you're not sure what address we have on file, check your voter registration.


or


2) Show two pieces of ID


At least one must have your current address

•health card
•Canadian passport
•birth certificate
•certificate of Canadian citizenship
•citizenship card
•social insurance number card
•Indian status card
•band membership card
•Métis card
•card issued by an Inuit local authority
•Canadian Forces identity card
•Veterans Affairs health card
•old age security card
•hospital card
•medical clinic card
•label on a prescription container
•identity bracelet issued by a hospital or long-term care facility
•blood donor card
•CNIB card
•credit card
•debit card
•employee card
•student identity card
•public transportation card
•library card
•liquor identity card
•parolee card
•firearms licence
•licence or card issued for fishing, trapping or hunting
•utility bill (e.g. electricity; water; telecommunications services including telephone, cable or satellite)
•bank statement
•credit union statement
•credit card statement
•personal cheque
•government statement of benefits
•government cheque or cheque stub
•pension plan statement
•residential lease or sub-lease
•mortgage contract or statement
•income tax assessment
•property tax assessment or evaluation
•vehicle ownership
•insurance certificate, policy or statement
•correspondence issued by a school, college or university
•letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee
•targeted revision form from Elections Canada to residents of long-term care facilities
•letter of confirmation of residence from a First Nations band or reserve or an Inuit local authority
•letter of confirmation of residence, letter of stay, admission form or statement of benefits from one of the following designated establishments: ◦student residence
◦seniors' residence
◦long-term care facility
◦shelter
◦soup kitchen


We accept e-statements and e-invoices. Print them or show them on a mobile device.


OR


3) If your ID does not have your current address, take an oath


Show two pieces of ID with your name and have someone who knows you attest to your address. This person must show proof of identity and address, be registered in the same polling division, and attest for only one person.

http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=vot&dir=ids&document=index&lang=e

[garbon]

Bottom line, I think, is for the US to reform the voter registration system fairly it would need a well administered national ID program of some sort. If that's not in place then any call for ID to vote basically boils down to partisan attempts at voter disenfranchisement.

I'm not sure why. We use the following system here in Canada, which has a bunch of different ID options, and as far as I know it is completely uncontroversial.

Despite attempts by Republican leadership and the RoTW to make it so, voting with no ID is completely uncontroversial in the US.

[Malthus]

Bottom line, I think, is for the US to reform the voter registration system fairly it would need a well administered national ID program of some sort. If that's not in place then any call for ID to vote basically boils down to partisan attempts at voter disenfranchisement.

I'm not sure why. We use the following system here in Canada, which has a bunch of different ID options, and as far as I know it is completely uncontroversial.

Despite attempts by Republican leadership and the RoTW to make it so, voting with no ID is completely uncontroversial in the US.

Given that apparently something like 40% of the US population doubts the legitimacy of the voting process (because they have been actively stirred up to do so by the Trump types), I'm finding that "completely uncontroversial" bit a trifle hard to believe.

I generally hate Republican hijinks as much as anyone.

However, I can't see how a requirement for having some sort of voter ID  is "disenfranchisement" in the US, when it apparently does not have that effect anywhere else.

The Canadian example shows a reasonable halfway house, as it has various options specifically to accommodate anyone who may have problems with picture ID.

Is there any actual reason why the options described above can't work, or insisting on them would "disenfranchise" any group of voters in the US? 

I get that it is gross to give in to shit-stirrers who have whipped up a "problem" of voter fraud that does not actually exist, but it seems to me one reasonable option is to adopt a system of voter ID - if only to cut the feet under the shit stirrers. As long as the system doesn't actually "disenfranchise" people, of course.

[garbon]

Given that apparently something like 40% of the US population doubts the legitimacy of the voting process (because they have been actively stirred up to do so by the Trump types), I'm finding that "completely uncontroversial" bit a trifle hard to believe.

Okay, I'll grant you it is controversial at the moment.

I get that it is gross to give in to shit-stirrers who have whipped up a "problem" of voter fraud that does not actually exist, but it seems to me one reasonable option is to adopt a system of voter ID - if only to cut the feet under the shit stirrers. As long as the system doesn't actually "disenfranchise" people, of course.

Seems like an additional pointless layer of bureaucracy to be figured out by all states to solve a non-issue. I'd rather my gov't not waste time trying to get people in line for that so that some folks are a little less butt hurt that the old timey, racist values that they love so much are going into the dustbin of history.

I'd agree with you that coming up with some scheme doesn't seem intrinsically bad, but placed in the context of American history and the decentralized fashion in which elections are run? Nope.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm not totally convinced voter fraud is a non-issue.  The principle piece of evidence used to support that claim is that the states which have conducted studies of the issue (Ohio is the one I remember) said the number of documented fraud cases were negligible, and by negligible I mean tiny.  But AFAICT, states don't have any systematic means of going back and checking whether a person who voted was who they claimed to be.  My suspicion is states just reported the cases that managed to get caught by our very porous system. It has been bruited (and no one has attempted to refute) that there are 10 million dead people still on voter registers.  Was the old Chicago joke about voting early and voting often completely without any basis in fact?

If I were to try and game the system, I think it wouldn't be that hard.  Find out the name and last known address of a dead person, then go to a poll and claim to be that person.  Or even easier, apply for an absentee ballot in that person's name.  You could do the same thing with people who are registered but you know just can't be arsed to vote.  Also, AFAIK, there is no systematic check for citizenship at time of registration.

[Liep]

I'm not totally convinced voter fraud is a non-issue.  The principle piece of evidence used to support that claim is that the states which have conducted studies of the issue (Ohio is the one I remember) said the number of documented fraud cases were negligible, and by negligible I mean tiny.  But AFAICT, states don't have any systematic means of going back and checking whether a person who voted was who they claimed to be.  My suspicion is states just reported the cases that managed to get caught by our very porous system. It has been bruited (and no one has attempted to refute) that there are 10 million dead people still on voter registers.  Was the old Chicago joke about voting early and voting often completely without any basis in fact?

If I were to try and game the system, I think it wouldn't be that hard.  Find out the name and last known address of a dead person, then go to a poll and claim to be that person.  Or even easier, apply for an absentee ballot in that person's name.  You could do the same thing with people who are registered but you know just can't be arsed to vote.  Also, AFAIK, there is no systematic check for citizenship at time of registration.

´

But you would have to organize it to get an effect from it and that's where the difficulties come in I guess.

[Admiral Yi]

But you would have to organize it to get an effect from it and that's where the difficulties come in I guess.

All you would need are some precinct captains who know people who don't mind cheating.

[Berkut]

I'm not totally convinced voter fraud is a non-issue.  The principle piece of evidence used to support that claim is that the states which have conducted studies of the issue (Ohio is the one I remember) said the number of documented fraud cases were negligible, and by negligible I mean tiny.  But AFAICT, states don't have any systematic means of going back and checking whether a person who voted was who they claimed to be.  My suspicion is states just reported the cases that managed to get caught by our very porous system. It has been bruited (and no one has attempted to refute) that there are 10 million dead people still on voter registers.  Was the old Chicago joke about voting early and voting often completely without any basis in fact?

If I were to try and game the system, I think it wouldn't be that hard.  Find out the name and last known address of a dead person, then go to a poll and claim to be that person.  Or even easier, apply for an absentee ballot in that person's name.  You could do the same thing with people who are registered but you know just can't be arsed to vote.  Also, AFAIK, there is no systematic check for citizenship at time of registration.

But if people did that, then in fact there WOULD be lots of evidence of voter fraud.

If you had, say, 1,000,000 people go and vote in someone elses name, and that was 99% successful, we would see 10,000 cases of people showing up to the polls to vote only to find that someone had already voted for them.

Which would clearly raise a rather serious alarm - something is not right!

If you had a million people case ballots in dead people names, and in only 1% if those cases did someone notice, we would have massive numbers of cases, in the thousands and thousands, of people investigating clearly illegal voting activity.

Instead what we see is like 100 odd cases, and when investigated 98 of them are completely explainable (dead guy voted before dieing, mistaken identity, etc., etc.).

[DGuller]

Of course, we don't ask for zee papers please and then put everybody in cattle cars either and send them to ovens, so YMMV.

Let's not gloat prematurely.

[Admiral Yi]

But if people did that, then in fact there WOULD be lots of evidence of voter fraud.

If you had, say, 1,000,000 people go and vote in someone elses name, and that was 99% successful, we would see 10,000 cases of people showing up to the polls to vote only to find that someone had already voted for them.

Which would clearly raise a rather serious alarm - something is not right!

If you had a million people case ballots in dead people names, and in only 1% if those cases did someone notice, we would have massive numbers of cases, in the thousands and thousands, of people investigating clearly illegal voting activity.

Instead what we see is like 100 odd cases, and when investigated 98 of them are completely explainable (dead guy voted before dieing, mistaken identity, etc., etc.).

I don't think we have any system in place that would catch 1%.

[DGuller]

But if people did that, then in fact there WOULD be lots of evidence of voter fraud.

If you had, say, 1,000,000 people go and vote in someone elses name, and that was 99% successful, we would see 10,000 cases of people showing up to the polls to vote only to find that someone had already voted for them.

Which would clearly raise a rather serious alarm - something is not right!

If you had a million people case ballots in dead people names, and in only 1% if those cases did someone notice, we would have massive numbers of cases, in the thousands and thousands, of people investigating clearly illegal voting activity.

Instead what we see is like 100 odd cases, and when investigated 98 of them are completely explainable (dead guy voted before dieing, mistaken identity, etc., etc.).

I don't think we have any system in place that would catch 1%.

Sure we have.  You go and vote for the dead guy.  Given that the fraud is so widespread as to affect elections, someone else could've already voted for your dead guy.  So at that point you're kinda caught.