Lawyers claim ringtones are public performance

Started by jimmy olsen, July 03, 2009, 01:00:43 PM

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jimmy olsen

July 03, 2009, 01:00:43 PM
Crazy.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/03/ascap_eff_ringtones_copyright_infringement_claims/
QuoteLawyers claim ringtones are public performance

EFF hits out at 'outlandish copyright claims'

By Kelly Fiveash
Posted in Mobile, 3rd July 2009 10:21 GMT

Internet watchdog Electronic Frontier Foundation has hit out at a US music royalties collector, accusing it of making "outlandish copyright claims" about mobile phone ringtones.

The American Society of Composer, Authors and Publishers (ASCAP) filed a lawsuit against telecoms giant AT&T, in which it told a federal court that ringtones fell under the public perfomance Copyright Act.

ASCAP collects royalties and licences on behalf of 350,000 members in the US.

In effect, the organisation is gunning for additional payments from mobile firms, and if they don't cough up the royalties ASCAP could claim copyright infringement against mobile users, according to the EFF.

The lobby group responded by filing an amicus brief* for the case earlier this week in the US District Court for the Southern District of New York.

The brief, which was also joined by the Center for Democracy and Technology and Public Knowledge, urged the federal court to reject what the EFF described as "bogus copyright claims... that could raise costs for consumers, jeopardise consumer rights, and curtail new technological innovation".

Copyright law exempts performance "without any purpose of direct or indirect commercial advantage", which should include the use of mobile ringtones in a public place, asserted the EFF. "This is an outlandish argument from ASCAP," said EFF senior intellectual property attorney Fred von Lohmann.

"Are the millions of people who have bought ringtones breaking the law if they forget to silence their phones in a restaurant? Under this reasoning from ASCAP, it would be a copyright violation for you to play your car radio with the window down!"

ASCAP insisted it wouldn't pursue individuals who it perceived to be breaking copyright law by airing music via their ringtones in public, but said it would bring royalty claims against phone service providers in the US.

"Because it is legal for consumers to play music in public, it's also legal for my mobile phone carrier to sell me a ringtone and a phone to do it. Otherwise it would be illegal to sell all kinds of technologies that help us enjoy our fair use, first sale, and other copyright privileges," argued von Lohmann.

But ASCAP, which filed a document against AT&T's request for a summary judgment in the case early last month, disagrees with that stance, claiming that performances can still violate copyright even if no commercial gain is apparent, such as with ringtones.

The case continues. ®

It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
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Syt

#1
July 03, 2009, 01:04:07 PM
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.
—Stephen Jay Gould

Proud owner of 42 Zoupa Points.

grumbler

#2
July 03, 2009, 01:57:44 PM
I don't understand.  Is someone actually claiming that they can sell ringtones based on other peoples' copyrighted work and not pay royalties for it?  :huh:
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Sophie Scholl

#3
July 03, 2009, 02:01:07 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 03, 2009, 01:57:44 PM
I don't understand.  Is someone actually claiming that they can sell ringtones based on other peoples' copyrighted work and not pay royalties for it?  :huh:
I think they're looking for additional fees on top of the base rate that mobile phone companies pay.  They're saying that because a ringtone is a "Public performance", and not just the initially negotiated and paid for usage of the ringtone as per the original agreement between ASCAP and the mobile phone companies.  Basically, it's just a scheme to make more money.  On a totally related topic, I hate ASCAP with a passion.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

crazy canuck

#4
July 03, 2009, 02:04:04 PM
 :rolleyes:

But it gives me an idea.  Every once in a while there is a guy on my bus that plays his Ipod way too loud.  I will inform him that he is breaching copyright by engaging in a public performance and that if he wishes to avoid being sued he should turn down the volume.

jimmy olsen

#5
July 03, 2009, 02:04:31 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 03, 2009, 01:57:44 PM
I don't understand.  Is someone actually claiming that they can sell ringtones based on other peoples' copyrighted work and not pay royalties for it?  :huh:
From what I understand (and I may be mistaken), the companies pay royalties for the sales, but ASCAP wants the companies to pay more royalties because the ringtones go off in public and are thus "public performances".
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

grumbler

#6
July 03, 2009, 02:06:30 PM
Quote from: Judas Iscariot on July 03, 2009, 02:01:07 PMI think they're looking for additional fees on top of the base rate that mobile phone companies pay.  They're saying that because a ringtone is a "Public performance", and not just the initially negotiated and paid for usage of the ringtone as per the original agreement between ASCAP and the mobile phone companies.  Basically, it's just a scheme to make more money. 
If they are asking for per-performance fees when they already have a flat-rate-per-ringtone-sold agreement, I agree that is absurd.

QuoteOn a totally related topic, I hate ASCAP with a passion.
I hate the whole music "industry" and am gladdened by every story of a band that decides to pass them by in favor of the new technologies.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Barrister

#7
July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:

It's only an argument made in court.  If the argument succeeds you should blame the judge.  If the argument fails you don't need to blame anyone.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Sophie Scholl

#8
July 03, 2009, 02:08:59 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 03, 2009, 02:06:30 PM
I hate the whole music "industry" and am gladdened by every story of a band that decides to pass them by in favor of the new technologies.
Agree entirely.  ASCAP is notorious for having only a passing relationship with the legit artists and mainly keeping all funds in house to keep themselves propped up.  They're the ones who charge bars for playing music at a rather silly and inflated rate.  They suck.  A lot.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

Sophie Scholl

#9
July 03, 2009, 02:09:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:

It's only an argument made in court.  If the argument succeeds you should blame the judge.  If the argument fails you don't need to blame anyone.
Personally, it's more of a music industry hate than a lawyer hate.
"Everything that brought you here -- all the things that made you a prisoner of past sins -- they are gone. Forever and for good. So let the past go... and live."

"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."

Ed Anger

#10
July 03, 2009, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:


I blame you for all the world's ills.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Barrister

#11
July 03, 2009, 02:38:47 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on July 03, 2009, 02:35:44 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:


I blame you for all the world's ills.

:shifty:
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

CountDeMoney

#12
July 03, 2009, 02:39:09 PM
Quote from: grumbler on July 03, 2009, 02:06:30 PM
I hate the whole music "industry" and am gladdened by every story of a band that decides to pass them by in favor of the new technologies.

Yay, Pearl Jam.
Boo, Metallica.

Valmy

#13
July 03, 2009, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:

Can you imagine a world without lawyers?


Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Neil

#14
July 03, 2009, 02:50:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on July 03, 2009, 02:08:09 PM
Why all the lawyer hate?   :huh:
Let's face it, lawyers are hard to love.  They've built a system where they can say or do anything without having any personal responsibility for it, and where right and wrong are determined by used car salesmen trying to out-fasttalk each other.
I do not hate you, nor do I love you, but you are made out of atoms which I can use for something else.
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