The Burkini Ban

[Malthus]

I just find it funny that somehow baring your skin is a cultural imperative in the west, when it really wasn't that long ago when this wsa how you dressed for a day at the beach:

Hey! We had to keep our pasty skin safe in the ante-sunscreen period.

I still do that.  I have discovered the wonders of swim shirts. No more peeling shoulders, where the sunscreen inevitably wears off.

Fortunately, not even the cops could possibly be expected to believe I'm wearing it to avoid lustful gazes. 

[Valmy]

Hey! You are somebody's fetish out there Malthus. Best to help keep their thoughts pure.

I also wear a swim shirt though. Gay men and heterosexual women can now keep their lustful thoughts under control.

[Tamas]

It is a very problematic issue, showing well how even a genuine desire to protect secular ways can turn into som fascist shit.

That said, I tend to agree with it.

It is very common to establish and enforce laws and rules that protect a society's perceived values. For example, we have laws punishing domestic violence. We allow divorces. Rape is illegal. So is stealing. Etc.

Now I grant you, wearing a cloth sack on you on the beach is not as damaging as those things. But saying "oh its individual freedom to wear these things they cannot be banned!" is -imho- akin to moral cowardice, because it advocates inaction in face of a symptom of a well known ignorance (at best) of one our fundamental values: gender equality.

The cultural indoctrination and physical oppression of muslim women is the true gender issue of our time, NOT public toilets.

Yes this is not the perfect battleground to fight that battle but it had to start somewhere.

[Malthus]

It is a very problematic issue, showing well how even a genuine desire to protect secular ways can turn into som fascist shit.

That said, I tend to agree with it.

It is very common to establish and enforce laws and rules that protect a society's perceived values. For example, we have laws punishing domestic violence. We allow divorces. Rape is illegal. So is stealing. Etc.

Now I grant you, wearing a cloth sack on you on the beach is not as damaging as those things. But saying "oh its individual freedom to wear these things they cannot be banned!" is -imho- akin to moral cowardice, because it advocates inaction in face of a symptom of a well known ignorance (at best) of one our fundamental values: gender equality.

The cultural indoctrination and physical oppression of muslim women is the true gender issue of our time, NOT public toilets.

Yes this is not the perfect battleground to fight that battle but it had to start somewhere.

One would think that if one wished to fight the battle against gender inequality via clothing paternalism, one would start with something like banning high-heeled shoes ... 

[BTW, a "burkini" looks more like a wetsuit than a "cloth sack": https://www.google.ca/search?q=burkini&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&biw=1920&bih=883&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0ahUKEwiEnKzctN_OAhWDGx4KHR9vAG8Q_AUIBigB ]

[Valmy]

One would think that if one wished to fight the battle against gender inequality via clothing paternalism, one would start with something like banning high-heeled shoes ... 

I don't think such a bigoted attack on our cowboy boot culture should be allowed

Oh wait. Just for women. Nevermind we're good.

[Razgovory]

American politics tainted by religion leads to Trump like candidate gaining huge support.

Trump isn't particularly religious

Sam Harris said that if Trump were elected he would be the first Atheist to be President.  And If Sam Harris said it, you can take it to the bank!

[Jacob]

So apparently the burkini ban was overturned in court?

[grumbler]

It is a very problematic issue, showing well how even a genuine desire to protect secular ways can turn into som fascist shit.

That said, I tend to agree with it.

It is very common to establish and enforce laws and rules that protect a society's perceived values. For example, we have laws punishing domestic violence. We allow divorces. Rape is illegal. So is stealing. Etc.

Now I grant you, wearing a cloth sack on you on the beach is not as damaging as those things. But saying "oh its individual freedom to wear these things they cannot be banned!" is -imho- akin to moral cowardice, because it advocates inaction in face of a symptom of a well known ignorance (at best) of one our fundamental values: gender equality.

The cultural indoctrination and physical oppression of muslim women is the true gender issue of our time, NOT public toilets.

Yes this is not the perfect battleground to fight that battle but it had to start somewhere.

Starting the battle against tolerance with something as silly as the burkini pretty well demonstrates the bankruptcy of the anti-tolerance movement.  Many women wear something very much like the burkini every day, but, suddenly, it is intolerable that some women do so at the beach because of suspicions that the woman's modesty is influenced by her religion?  Bullshit. If a person is going to argue that forcibly denying women the right to dress except in accordance with one's religious views is bad, one must also concede that forcibly denying women the right to dress except in accordance with one's anti-religious views is also bad.

[Hamilcar]

Muslim immigrants: We insist on continuing to live according to our culture and values.
French: We insist you conform to our culture and adopt our values
Muslim immigrants: Nope.
French: Fine, we'll ban your culture until you conform.

Diagnosis: terminal failure of integration.

Recommended course of action: Well, it's a bit too late, sorry. There's what, 6 million of them?

[grumbler]

So apparently the burkini ban was overturned in court?

Yes.  Though it must be remembered that these bans were local ordinances, not national laws.

[Valmy]

So apparently the burkini ban was overturned in court?

Yes.

[grumbler]

Muslim immigrants: We insist on continuing to live according to our culture and values.
French: We insist you conform to our culture and adopt our values
Muslim immigrants: Nope.
French: Fine, we'll ban your culture until you conform.

Diagnosis: terminal failure of integration.

Recommended course of action: Well, it's a bit too late, sorry. There's what, 6 million of them?

Diagnosis:  terminal failure of presenting meaningful generalization

Recommended course of action;  don't hit "post" until you have thought about what you are about to post.

the essence of French "culture and values" is not incompatible with the essence of Muslim culture and values; Muslims have successfully lived in France for centuries.

Without question, part of the problem in France is an unwillingness of some muslim immigrant, especially those who consider themselves exiles from their "real" countries, to accept that they have to change many of their ways to conform to the minimum requirements of successfully living in France.  Without question, part of the problem is the intolerance of many French employers, politicians, and bureaucrats for anything that smacks of "Muslim."  Sixty percent of France's prison population is Muslim.  That's failure on both sides.

Fighting the tolerance battles over silly things like the burkini just distracts from fighting the real issues of intolerance on both sides.  It is easier, I suppose, to fight the silly fights than the real ones.

[Hamilcar]

Muslim immigrants: We insist on continuing to live according to our culture and values.
French: We insist you conform to our culture and adopt our values
Muslim immigrants: Nope.
French: Fine, we'll ban your culture until you conform.

Diagnosis: terminal failure of integration.

Recommended course of action: Well, it's a bit too late, sorry. There's what, 6 million of them?

Diagnosis:  terminal failure of presenting meaningful generalization

Recommended course of action;  don't hit "post" until you have thought about what you are about to post.

In your case, the doctor should have recommended an intellectual abortion.

[Valmy]

So apparently the burkini ban was overturned in court?

Yes.  Though it must be remembered that these bans were local ordinances, not national laws.

It was just in Cote d'Azur I thought.

[CountDeMoney]

It was just in Cote d'Azur I thought.

Meh, I heard French Riviera.