Tom Holland on Europe

[The Minsky Moment]

Meritocracy is the worst possible system, except for all the alternatives.

[The Minsky Moment]

As for the OP I find the argument incoherent.  "More Christianity" will not help integrate Muslim immigrants into Europe. Baptism is an act of apostasy for Muslims which is why pre-modern European states never integrated Muslims without coercion (and in the Spanish case still rejected them after that).

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

[Ed Anger]

I think we can all support the killing of Hungarians.

[grumbler]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies."  If you are using naturalization as the rite of passage into European society, you need some means of excluding those who merely want the benefits of citizenship in exchange for going through the forms of adoption of values.  There has to be more than a token cost paid in exchange for that kind of citizenship.

[Tamas]

I think we can all support the killing of Hungarians.

This is the first time I ever heard about the idea we wanted to settle in Germany before Lechfeld.

[Ed Anger]

I think we can all support the killing of Hungarians.

This is the first time I ever heard about the idea we wanted to settle in Germany before Lechfeld.

Settle? Spread Sexually transmitted beets more like it.

[viper37]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies." 

easy, but you guys call it racism and intolerance.  So, just don't do anything different and it will be perfect

[grumbler]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies." 

easy, but you guys call it racism and intolerance.  So, just don't do anything different and it will be perfect

Google's gibberish-to-English translation came out as still gibberish.  Wanna try to express yourself in English this time?  You know, using nouns and verbs and all of that?  "You guys" in my case aren't European and can't do anything about granting citizenship in European countries.

[alfred russel]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies."  If you are using naturalization as the rite of passage into European society, you need some means of excluding those who merely want the benefits of citizenship in exchange for going through the forms of adoption of values.  There has to be more than a token cost paid in exchange for that kind of citizenship.

We can use the standards of the roman republic, and grant citizenship to only those that provide service to the state (usually military) and learn latin.

[The Brain]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies."  If you are using naturalization as the rite of passage into European society, you need some means of excluding those who merely want the benefits of citizenship in exchange for going through the forms of adoption of values.  There has to be more than a token cost paid in exchange for that kind of citizenship.

We can use the standards of the roman republic, and grant citizenship to only those that provide service to the state (usually military) and learn latin.

What if I want to know more?

[garbon]

We have a modern equivalent to baptism.  It is called citizenship.  If we are looking for an integrative model that can be applied to modern Europe it is not Otto's slaughter and conversion of Magyars or for that matter Charlemagne's brutal wars of cultural extirpation against Germanic pagans.  It is Rome and the extension of the attractive concept of civitas.

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies."  If you are using naturalization as the rite of passage into European society, you need some means of excluding those who merely want the benefits of citizenship in exchange for going through the forms of adoption of values.  There has to be more than a token cost paid in exchange for that kind of citizenship.

We can use the standards of the roman republic, and grant citizenship to only those that provide service to the state (usually military) and learn latin.

What if I want to know more?

Then you take that an adapt them into Ottoman laws...or so the event text told me in EU4.

[dps]

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies." 

So, is your suggestion that Europe brings back the Inquisition, except this time, instead of torturing and executing those suspected of only pretending to be Christian, they target those only pretending to be secular?

[grumbler]

The question, of course, is "how do tell if the Muslims really have adopted the values inherent in European citizenship so that we only reward those willing to accept the values of their new societies." 

So, is your suggestion that Europe brings back the Inquisition, except this time, instead of torturing and executing those suspected of only pretending to be Christian, they target those only pretending to be secular?

I am asking a question.  Is the Inquisition your suggestion, or just a strawman?

[Valmy]

So, is your suggestion that Europe brings back the Inquisition, except this time, instead of torturing and executing those suspected of only pretending to be Christian, they target those only pretending to be secular?

Will they be executing at a rate higher than 3.6 per year this time?

[Sheilbh]

Guys, the Inquisition does get a hard time...