Coup attempt in Turkey

[Razgovory]

Fascinating we start talking about how good it is that people are dying to overthrow Erdogan, chief calamity of our age, then we go on to a full throated defense of Trump's foreign policy.  Weird, huh?

[Hamilcar]

I actually suspect something real bad is going to happen when Turkey finishes preparing its formal extradition request for Fethullah Gülen; now unless I'm mistaken, since Gülen is a permanent resident with a green card, there is no mechanism for the State Department or the President to just "extradite him" on special request from Turkey. We would have to hold an extradition hearing in courts, which are not politically answerable to U.S. foreign policy concerns. Unless the Turkish request actually contains legitimate evidence that would withstand court scrutiny, it's likely the request will be rejected by a court--and even if Obama was inclined to do something about it, he couldn't.

I've heard some people suggest Erdogan might basically close up Incirlik and not allow anyone to come or go, essentially holding some ~5000 American servicemen hostage, until Gülen is extradited.

Could Gulen put in a quick application for US citizenship at this point?

[Admiral Yi]

AFAIK the US has no law against extradition of citizens.

[Hamilcar]

AFAIK the US has no law against extradition of citizens.

Sure, but I thought that the US was extreeeemely reluctant to extradite citizens. More so than green card holders at least.

[Razgovory]

Not particularly.  Much less so than many other countries.  Typically it has to be a valid charge though.

[dps]

I've heard some people suggest Erdogan might basically close up Incirlik and not allow anyone to come or go, essentially holding some ~5000 American servicemen hostage, until Gülen is extradited.

He'd be mightily overplaying his hand if he did that.

Yeah, trying to hold our servicemen hostage wouldn't end well for him, I don't think.  If he does try to pull something that over the top, he'd better aim for a quick resolution while President Obama is still in office.  I don't think either Trump or Hilary would have as much patience with him as the current administration. 

[Admiral Yi]

Sure, but I thought that the US was extreeeemely reluctant to extradite citizens. More so than green card holders at least.

I've never heard of that.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Naturalization is a pretty quick process if you're a permanent resident who has been here a long time, it's permanent residency that's the hard thing to get. But yeah, the change in status wouldn't be a major factor, we generally have no problem extraditing our own citizens to foreign jurisdictions on a proper charge that follows our constitutional principles. We do generally exercise right of first prosecution if what the person did also makes him a criminal here; like we have laws that make it illegal to go overseas for the purposes of having sex with a minor. So if one of our citizens faced extradition for that they'd face trial here first, and might later be extradited.

Really the only rights and privileges citizenship brings over permanent residency is a) U.S. passport, b) right to vote in most State/Federal elections (a small number of local elections are open to any residents, even non-citizens.)

[Hamilcar]

@OvB: thanks!

[OttoVonBismarck]

The U.S. extradition process involves
1. The State Department reviewing the request and deciding if it's extraditable and if it is in the foreign policy interests of the United States (i.e. they get to make a political determination),
2. If it passes #1, it goes to the Justice Department who reviews it for legality who passes it to the U.S. Attorneys office in the District in which the subject live.
3. U.S. Attorney seeks an arrest warrant, arrests the subject.
4. Subject faces an extradition hearing before a U.S. Magistrate Judge or a U.S. District Judge, this part of the process is entirely apolitical, the judge isn't going to approve the order unless there is some evidence to justify the charges and it's an "extraditable offense" under the treat.
5. If an extradition order is issued, the subject can make a habeas claim in Federal court, which would prompt a review of whether or not the government's detention of the subject for purposes of extradition violates the U.S. Constitution, if they found it did, the subject would have to be released (but could actually be re-arrested and they could try the whole thing again.)
6. It goes back to the State Department, who makes the final decision on whether to extradite or not. So this is a "second round" in which State can apply a political/policy litmus test to the extradition, and decide not to go through with it.

The big thing is, a typical district judge isn't going to issue an extradition order on a claim that Gülen was involved in plotting a coup without some actual evidence to that effect, and while I don't at all doubt Turkey can and will manufacture such evidence, it's questionable if the manufactured evidence will survive scrutiny. Even if it did, it's unlikely the State Department/Obama is going to sign off on extradition if they view the request as laden with nonsense conspiratorial claims with no trustworthy evidence.

[Hamilcar]

The big thing is, a typical district judge isn't going to issue an extradition order on a claim that Gülen was involved in plotting a coup without some actual evidence to that effect, and while I don't at all doubt Turkey can and will manufacture such evidence, it's questionable if the manufactured evidence will survive scrutiny. Even if it did, it's unlikely the State Department/Obama is going to sign off on extradition if they view the request as laden with nonsense conspiratorial claims with no trustworthy evidence.

So the odds of extradition in this case would be very low. Erdogan presumably knows this, and is playing to a domestic audience as he paints the U.S. as "in league" with Gülen.

[Valmy]

We can be both enemies and friends of Islam depending upon the needs of the audience involved.

[Ed Anger]

Bomb Mecca.

[dps]

The U.S. extradition process involves
1. The State Department reviewing the request and deciding if it's extraditable and if it is in the foreign policy interests of the United States (i.e. they get to make a political determination),
2. If it passes #1, it goes to the Justice Department who reviews it for legality who passes it to the U.S. Attorneys office in the District in which the subject live.
3. U.S. Attorney seeks an arrest warrant, arrests the subject.
4. Subject faces an extradition hearing before a U.S. Magistrate Judge or a U.S. District Judge, this part of the process is entirely apolitical, the judge isn't going to approve the order unless there is some evidence to justify the charges and it's an "extraditable offense" under the treat.
5. If an extradition order is issued, the subject can make a habeas claim in Federal court, which would prompt a review of whether or not the government's detention of the subject for purposes of extradition violates the U.S. Constitution, if they found it did, the subject would have to be released (but could actually be re-arrested and they could try the whole thing again.)
6. It goes back to the State Department, who makes the final decision on whether to extradite or not. So this is a "second round" in which State can apply a political/policy litmus test to the extradition, and decide not to go through with it.

The big thing is, a typical district judge isn't going to issue an extradition order on a claim that Gülen was involved in plotting a coup without some actual evidence to that effect, and while I don't at all doubt Turkey can and will manufacture such evidence, it's questionable if the manufactured evidence will survive scrutiny. Even if it did, it's unlikely the State Department/Obama is going to sign off on extradition if they view the request as laden with nonsense conspiratorial claims with no trustworthy evidence.

Note that none of that really hinges on whether or not the person for whom extradition is sought is a US citizen or not.

[Ed Anger]

Apologies if already posted.