Stuck In Your Parents’ Basement? Don’t Blame The Economy

[garbon]

The negatives are not piling up "for cities" they are piling up for highly desirable places to live. Silicon Valley is not urban at all, for example. Certainly not urban in the sense of NYC or London.

There are great places to live, and lots of people want to live there, and hence it is expensive. So what? That is a relative issue, not an absolute one - there will always be places that cost more to live because more people want to live there. That is not a problem.

But the complaint (at least as far as I see) isn't that places are expensive but rather that they are too expensive even for anyone that would carry out work functions there.

It is a problem when the *average* places to live are difficult to live in with *average* salaries.

Meh, if you live in a shitty place, your life is going to be shit.

[Jacob]

I am rather aware of that, having been in exactly that position myself. I had offers from places in DC and SF, and declined them because I had 23 other offers from places where the cost of living was much more reasonable, and hence my overall standard of living would be better.

I'm not sure the example of an executive in a high demand field with a wide geographic distribution of jobs, with 23 offers across the country when he looked for work, is the best baseline for judging the impact of this problem. It's a scenario of fairly limited applicability.

[Berkut]

I am rather aware of that, having been in exactly that position myself. I had offers from places in DC and SF, and declined them because I had 23 other offers from places where the cost of living was much more reasonable, and hence my overall standard of living would be better.

I'm not sure the example of an executive in a high demand field with a wide geographic distribution of jobs, with 23 offers across the country when he looked for work, is the best baseline for judging the impact of this problem. It's a scenario of fairly limited applicability.

I was talking about when I graduated from college - when I was just another recent grad with a STEM degree.

But even at that, you do have a point. I did have a degree in a engineering field with a wide variety of jobs all over the country, but that makes me a BETTER example, in that I had the luxury of being able to make decisions based on looking at the various options I had where I could weigh how much I want to live in a particular place (I really wanted a job in San Diego, for example) with the cost of living there against some other less desirable place where my relative salary would be higher.

The point I am arguing though is that ONLY looking at the most expensive places to live is counter productive to the general discussion. Most people graduating from college in the USA are not looking for jobs in the most expensive places to live in the USA. There are hundreds of options of medium to large cities that employ lots and lots of people outside the flashy, expensive destinations like NYC and San Francisco. Focusing on those places says nothing about the overall problem - you could (theoretically) have NO general problem with recent college grads being able to afford housing in general, while at the same time it still being the case that they cannot afford to live in the most expensive places to live in America.

There is no "problem" with some average person right out of college not being able to afford to live in Manhattan.

There is a problem in that some average person right out of college cannot get themselves a job that would let them be able to afford their own place in Phoenix or St. Louis or some other more average priced location.

[Berkut]

Here is another analogy - police officers.

There is a problem that police officers who work in NYC cannot afford to live anywhere near NYC. That is a real problem. There is no way you could reasonably afford to pay the 100,000 or so police officers enough to allow them to live in the places they police in NYC.

Does that mean there is a problem across the US that police officers don't make enough to live in the places they work? No, not at all. The outlier examples are never good reference points.

[Jacob]

I was talking about when I graduated from college - when I was just another recent grad with a STEM degree.

But even at that, you do have a point. I did have a degree in a engineering field with a wide variety of jobs all over the country, but that makes me a BETTER example, in that I had the luxury of being able to make decisions based on looking at the various options I had where I could weigh how much I want to live in a particular place (I really wanted a job in San Diego, for example) with the cost of living there against some other less desirable place where my relative salary would be higher.

The point I am arguing though is that ONLY looking at the most expensive places to live is counter productive to the general discussion. Most people graduating from college in the USA are not looking for jobs in the most expensive places to live in the USA. There are hundreds of options of medium to large cities that employ lots and lots of people outside the flashy, expensive destinations like NYC and San Francisco. Focusing on those places says nothing about the overall problem - you could (theoretically) have NO general problem with recent college grads being able to afford housing in general, while at the same time it still being the case that they cannot afford to live in the most expensive places to live in America.

There is no "problem" with some average person right out of college not being able to afford to live in Manhattan.

There is a problem in that some average person right out of college cannot get themselves a job that would let them be able to afford their own place in Phoenix or St. Louis or some other more average priced location.

I think the job market has changed significantly from when you were a recent college grad.

That said, I agree with your conclusion that recent college grads do not necessarily need to be able to afford their own place in Manhattan; and that it's not inherently a problem that they cannot. But the increase in housing prices has effects beyond the housing of new grads, and those problems are not adequately addressed with a "it's simple, just get a job somewhere cheaper and move there."

[Berkut]

I think the job market has changed significantly from when you were a recent college grad.

That said, I agree with your conclusion that recent college grads do not necessarily need to be able to afford their own place in Manhattan; and that it's not inherently a problem that they cannot. But the increase in housing prices has effects beyond the housing of new grads, and those problems are not adequately addressed with a "it's simple, just get a job somewhere cheaper and move there."

I don't think we are disagreeing at all.

[Jacob]

I don't think we are disagreeing at all.

Luckily we can still argue about not disagreeing

[11B4V]

A languish past time to be sure.

[MadImmortalMan]

It is a problem when the *average* places to live are difficult to live in with *average* salaries.

I think we hit that point some time ago.

[Camerus]

FWIW,the data in the OP seems to apply for the US generally, and not just a small handful of hotspots (clearly experiencing a bubble  ).

However, I do think there's a lot more opportunities in general for a higher quality of life to people who are willing to move around.

[crazy canuck]

FWIW,the data in the OP seems to apply for the US generally, and not just a small handful of hotspots (clearly experiencing a bubble  ).

However, I do think there's a lot more opportunities in general for a higher quality of life to people who are willing to move around.

Perhaps in the US given your numerous cities.  But in Canada the problem is pretty significant since there are really only two cities where there are reasonably good prospects for young professionals and land prices in those two cities are now unaffordable for most. 

[Camerus]

Heh. I'm from Toronto originally and went to university at the U of T, and after graduating have lived in Montreal, Ottawa and Edmonton  (not to mention abroad). I have a home in Edmonton, the likes of which I would not be able to afford as easily in Toronto and a pretty decent standard of living here. Anecdotally I can say there are a lot of other educated folks I've met from elsewhere in Canada doing well here, even after the oil drop. So it definitely can be done if you're willing to think outside the Toronto / Vancouver box.

[Barrister]

Heh. I'm from Toronto originally and went to university at the U of T, and after graduating have lived in Montreal, Ottawa and Edmonton  (not to mention abroad). I have a home in Edmonton, the likes of which I would not be able to afford as easily in Toronto and a pretty decent standard of living here. Anecdotally I can say there are a lot of other educated folks I've met from elsewhere in Canada doing well here, even after the oil drop. So it definitely can be done if you're willing to think outside the Toronto / Vancouver box.

Hell Camerus - you're in E-town?  I had no idea.

Ever feel like meeting up and having a coffee or beer?

[The Larch]

It also is a good way to go mental. And I get along with my family.

Word. I also love my family, but after moving in with them when I came back to my hometown I couldn't stay longer than a few months, even if it meant moving into a tiny cupboard of an appartment just to get away. The look on my mom's face when she saw the place I rented for the first time... 

[crazy canuck]

Heh. I'm from Toronto originally and went to university at the U of T, and after graduating have lived in Montreal, Ottawa and Edmonton  (not to mention abroad). I have a home in Edmonton, the likes of which I would not be able to afford as easily in Toronto and a pretty decent standard of living here. Anecdotally I can say there are a lot of other educated folks I've met from elsewhere in Canada doing well here, even after the oil drop. So it definitely can be done if you're willing to think outside the Toronto / Vancouver box.

I don't deny that it was possible to do that in the past.  But in the past Toronto and Vancouver were not the only parts of the country generating jobs.