Archaeologists do it in holes: Tales from the stratigraphy

[jimmy olsen]

Now, archaeologists may have to accept that Neandertals were the original cave artists. A team of dating experts and archaeologists reports that simple creations—the outline of a hand, an array of lines, and a painted cave formation—from three caves in Spain all date to more than 64,800 years ago, at least 20,000 years before modern humans reached Europe. Shells from a fourth Spanish cave, pigment-stained and pierced as if for use as body ornaments, are even older, a team including several of the same researchers reports in a second paper, in Science Advances. Some researchers had already attributed the shells to Neandertals, but the new dates leave little doubt.

Interesting find. What really intrigues me is why and how the Neanderthals went extinct.

Due to the glacial conditions of west eurasia, the Neanderthals simply could not maintain a population as near as large as the H. sapiens could in Africa. A large enough migration could simply roll over them, even if they were cognitively their equal.

[Valmy]

I figured they went extinct through vigorous inter-breeding.

[jimmy olsen]

I figured they went extinct through vigorous inter-breeding.

Huge migration doesn't have to be hostile. Even interbreeding with them will wipe them out if they're outnumbered enough.

[The Brain]

You don't risk dying from breeding unless you're a woman or a Qing emperor.

[grumbler]

You don't risk dying from breeding unless you're a woman or a Qing emperor.

Or a Swedish goat.

[The Brain]

Goats are a hardy breed.

[Valmy]

I figured they went extinct through vigorous inter-breeding.

Huge migration doesn't have to be hostile. Even interbreeding with them will wipe them out if they're outnumbered enough.

Yes. I am not sure how else vigorous interbreeding might wipe out a population.

[HVC]

Sapiens were really good at killing mega fauna. Do nederthals (and apes in general count as mega fauna? We're bigger than most of our primate cousins)

[grumbler]

Sapiens were really good at killing mega fauna. Do nederthals (and apes in general count as mega fauna? We're bigger than most of our primate cousins)

The traditional use of the term megafauna uses, I believe, the one ton threshold.  So, katmai yes, humans and apes, no.

[KRonn]

Now, archaeologists may have to accept that Neandertals were the original cave artists. A team of dating experts and archaeologists reports that simple creations—the outline of a hand, an array of lines, and a painted cave formation—from three caves in Spain all date to more than 64,800 years ago, at least 20,000 years before modern humans reached Europe. Shells from a fourth Spanish cave, pigment-stained and pierced as if for use as body ornaments, are even older, a team including several of the same researchers reports in a second paper, in Science Advances. Some researchers had already attributed the shells to Neandertals, but the new dates leave little doubt.

Interesting find. What really intrigues me is why and how the Neanderthals went extinct.

Due to the glacial conditions of west eurasia, the Neanderthals simply could not maintain a population as near as large as the H. sapiens could in Africa. A large enough migration could simply roll over them, even if they were cognitively their equal.

Yes, that sounds quite plausible. And as discussed later about interbreeding, I assume if there were a lot more H. Sapiens then the that causes the Nanderthals even more stress to their dwindling pop. I've read, probably in these threads, that there is some Neanderthal DNA in modern humans, a very small amount.

[Razgovory]

Now, archaeologists may have to accept that Neandertals were the original cave artists. A team of dating experts and archaeologists reports that simple creations—the outline of a hand, an array of lines, and a painted cave formation—from three caves in Spain all date to more than 64,800 years ago, at least 20,000 years before modern humans reached Europe. Shells from a fourth Spanish cave, pigment-stained and pierced as if for use as body ornaments, are even older, a team including several of the same researchers reports in a second paper, in Science Advances. Some researchers had already attributed the shells to Neandertals, but the new dates leave little doubt.

Interesting find. What really intrigues me is why and how the Neanderthals went extinct.

Due to the glacial conditions of west eurasia, the Neanderthals simply could not maintain a population as near as large as the H. sapiens could in Africa. A large enough migration could simply roll over them, even if they were cognitively their equal.

Why would a large population migrate to an area that could not support them?

[HVC]

How much interbreeding is needed to get 2% Neanderthal dna in western Europeans? I mean could it have just been a bunch of ice age brains out there?

[crazy canuck]

How much interbreeding is needed to get 2% Neanderthal dna in western Europeans? I mean could it have just been a bunch of ice age brains out there?

I think it means there was a significant amount of inbreeding going on given the fact that all non-African human populations have about that amount.

[KRonn]

Now, archaeologists may have to accept that Neandertals were the original cave artists. A team of dating experts and archaeologists reports that simple creations—the outline of a hand, an array of lines, and a painted cave formation—from three caves in Spain all date to more than 64,800 years ago, at least 20,000 years before modern humans reached Europe. Shells from a fourth Spanish cave, pigment-stained and pierced as if for use as body ornaments, are even older, a team including several of the same researchers reports in a second paper, in Science Advances. Some researchers had already attributed the shells to Neandertals, but the new dates leave little doubt.

Interesting find. What really intrigues me is why and how the Neanderthals went extinct.

Due to the glacial conditions of west eurasia, the Neanderthals simply could not maintain a population as near as large as the H. sapiens could in Africa. A large enough migration could simply roll over them, even if they were cognitively their equal.

Why would a large population migrate to an area that could not support them?

Good point. Could be that as the glaciers receded the H. Sapiens moved in and the Neanderthals had already been decimated by the previous harsher conditions, and/or the H. Sapiens had become better able to adapt to more harsh conditions.

[grumbler]

Good point. Could be that as the glaciers receded the H. Sapiens moved in and the Neanderthals had already been decimated by the previous harsher conditions, and/or the H. Sapiens had become better able to adapt to more harsh conditions.

The are lots of theories about why HS Sapiens supplanted HS Neanderthalsis about 20,000 years ago.  That was just before the glacial maximum of the last Ice Age in Europe.  The one I like best, I think, is that HSS fingers were nimble enough to sew and HSN were not.