The End of Prison Visitation in America

[Zanza]

No, profits are not inherently evil. But I don't consider prisons an aspect of society that should be governed by the laws of the market and targeted at profits. 

I think prisons, like law enforcement for example, should be operated by the state and the target of the prison system should be security of society-at-large and rehabilitation of the inmates, not making a profit. Like all state activities, there should be cost control, but the guiding principles for decisions should be what's best for the two aforementioned targets, not how to make a profit with prisons.

[Admiral Yi]

So you are assuming that a for profit prison system delivers that social good less well than a publicly operated prison?

[Josquius]

Does this kind of crap actually save the government money?
It seems Privatisation usually tends to cost the same or more....

[Zanza]

So you are assuming that a for profit prison system delivers that social good less well than a publicly operated prison?

Yes.

[Admiral Yi]

Yes.

On faith, or on evidence?

[Tonitrus]

So you are assuming that a for profit prison system delivers that social good less well than a publicly operated prison?

When states ship their inmates out of state to for-profit prisons (as Alaska does, for example), yes.  When prisons (even public ones) cut off in-person visitation, because it's cheaper to contract a cheap Skype rip-off with crappy laptops, yes.

And even if for-profit prisons are cheaper, I believe in a principle that some things that government/society provide should be in the hands of commercial/market entities.  Institutions where you are depriving people of their freedom (even if justifiably) are perhaps the prime example of that principle.  Police as well, or any segment of the criminal justice system.

[The Brain]

The discussion in Sweden has been a lot about healthcare (since we have a number of for-profit healthcare providers but not for-profit prisons). To the Left, which claims to be against profit in healthcare, the important distinction appears to be if the work is done by males or by females. Female-dominated fields like nursing etc should, according to the Left, never be done for profit. For male-dominated fields like providing and servicing technical equipment, or building the hospital buildings, profits are OK (and are considered natural). My impression is that this is just about the traditional sexism of the Left.

[Zanza]

Yes.

On faith, or on evidence?

On faith. I don't see how a for-profit incentive would lead to better allocation of resources when it comes to prisons.

That said, imprisoning people is perhaps the most invasive state power there is (short of capital punishment, but that doesn't exist here). We as a society need to deprive some of our fellow humans of their liberty, but we should do it in the most dignified way and that does not include making a profit of their depriviation of liberty.

[Berkut]

Does it imply that? To me it just implied that prisons are run for profit, not that judges are in on the deal.

If you don't accept my premise, how does Tonto's statement make any sense?  Why do for profit prisons and ancillaries have to be purged with fire?  Because profit is inherently evil?

No, it is because the profit motive is not compatible with running a state function that involves the necessary and systemic violation of otherwise basic human rights.

Putting people in prison is a necessary evil of our society - there is no reasonable way to do it in a manner that allows people to make a lot of money off of it while maintaining a respect for basic human dignity, as these kinds of cases, and many more like them, make clear.

[Berkut]

Yes.

On faith, or on evidence?

What is interesting here is Yi's faith that the profit motive, in any and all cases, *must* be the proper choice.

What is interesting about that is that even a cursory understanding of free markets, which underpins any discussion of profit motive, would make it clear that the prison industry, by definition, cannot be operating as any kind of free market.

The idea that someone would support a exclusive business contracted with the state to provide monopoly services to a completely captive population without any kind of market price controls at all based on trotting out the mantra of the purity and fundamental awesomeness of the profit motive is a rather fine example of just how ridiculous the religion of money has become.


If Yi really had any kind of actual commitment to a free market, he should be horrified at the idea of this kind of thing - he should be demanding that for-profit prison service providers should operate in a system where the consumers of their products have a choice of providers in order to create actual free market price and service pressures.

[CountDeMoney]

FEEL THE BERK

[Berkut]

Shush you. This has nothing to do with socialism.

If you are going to champion free market capitalism, doing so in the realm of literally captive consumers with state mandated monopoly service providers is pretty astonishing.

[Razgovory]

Not that astonishing.  See 19th and first half of the 20th century.

[CountDeMoney]

Shush you. This has nothing to do with socialism.

If you are going to champion free market capitalism, doing so in the realm of literally captive consumers with state mandated monopoly service providers is pretty astonishing.

No, but it is refreshing to see more people finally start openly challenging the hypocrisy, venality and manufactured artificiality of the alleged "free" market.

[Martinus]

Shush you. This has nothing to do with socialism.

If you are going to champion free market capitalism, doing so in the realm of literally captive consumers with state mandated monopoly service providers is pretty astonishing.

No, but it is refreshing to see more people finally start openly challenging the hypocrisy, venality and manufactured artificiality of the alleged "free" market.

That comment makes no sense. What is wrong here is that they are applying a free market mechanism to an area where it is not applicable - I fully agree with Berkut's earlier posts. That does not mean there is something wrong with free market per se.