What is your (prefered) definition of evil?

[Valmy]

So, being like God?

Nonsense. God loves you Marty. You are perfect and beloved in God's eyes. Berkut, though, not sure about him. And he might be the true God.

[Razgovory]

I dunno, I reserve the right to formulate it in a better way, but pretty much I would define evil as being contrary to God's wishes and nature.

That is almost stunning in how terrifying it is...

Tribal response: triggered.

[Valmy]

Those who claim godlike status are typically evil, yes.

Huh. Not sure I agree with that. That is a surprisingly large number of people in history after all.

[Martinus]

I dunno, I reserve the right to formulate it in a better way, but pretty much I would define evil as being contrary to God's wishes and nature.

That is almost stunning in how terrifying it is...

I knew you'd love it. 

You just defined *me* as evil, so yeah, I would tend to object to that.

It is this concept of evil that justifies my beliefs as a death sentence in some countries. And what is more, with *your* definition of evil, *their* demand that I be legally killed for my beliefs is "good".

You really like putting words in my mouth Berkie.

I did not define you as evil.  You seem like a very decent guy.  You work hard, provide for your family, love your wife and children, are active in your local community... all of that seems entirely in accordance with God's nature as far as I can tell.  You may not believe in Him, but whether you know it or not you seem to be living a pretty Christian life.

And I have no hestitation in saying that those who would put you to death because of your religion (or lack thereof) are pretty clearly evil.  Jesus was pretty clear on the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" bit.  We're supposed to leave the judging up to God.

Ok so we agree more than I thought.

What you call "Christian life" is (at the meta level) what Hindu call "yama". I.e. living a good life (not good in the sense of comfortable, but one that is not evil). The rules of "yama" differ from a religion to a religion and from a culture to a culture but ultimately it is avoiding unnecessary "excitement" (such as killing, or stealing, or inviting bad karma), so that you put yourself in a state that helps achieve transcendence.

[Martinus]

Which brings us back to my original definition of evil being a "force out of balance". If your life is out of balance (Koyaanisqatsi, as the Hopi would call it), this is the root of evil.

[Eddie Teach]

Those who claim godlike status are typically evil, yes.

I Am not. 

[Berkut]

I dunno, I reserve the right to formulate it in a better way, but pretty much I would define evil as being contrary to God's wishes and nature.

That is almost stunning in how terrifying it is...

I knew you'd love it. 

You just defined *me* as evil, so yeah, I would tend to object to that.

It is this concept of evil that justifies my beliefs as a death sentence in some countries. And what is more, with *your* definition of evil, *their* demand that I be legally killed for my beliefs is "good".

You really like putting words in my mouth Berkie.

I did not define you as evil.  You seem like a very decent guy.  You work hard, provide for your family, love your wife and children, are active in your local community... all of that seems entirely in accordance with God's nature as far as I can tell.  You may not believe in Him, but whether you know it or not you seem to be living a pretty Christian life.

But your Christian god wants me to believe and worship him above all those other things - hence by the definition of evil you have provided (acting outside his wishes and desires), I am in fact evil. Acting in a Christian manner is something that happens because you are good, not because acting in such a manner is good. As far as *my* understanding of Christianity is concerned, if you define evil in strictly terms of "acting outside the desires/nature of God", then in fact I am evil, because I refuse to accept the central tenet of that faith - that acceptance of Christ is the only path to salvation. Being a decent person is great, but doesn't save me.

And I have no hestitation in saying that those who would put you to death because of your religion (or lack thereof) are pretty clearly evil.  Jesus was pretty clear on the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" bit.  We're supposed to leave the judging up to God.

And that is why I feel pretty safe visiting your lovely family. The details of what God you worship do matter when it comes to actual behavior.

But your *definition* could be as easily used by someone who worships a different god to justify taking me down to the local square and stoning me to death. And has been used for just such a purpose many, many times.

[dps]

But your *definition* could be as easily used by someone who worships a different god to justify taking me down to the local square and stoning me to death. And has been used for just such a purpose many, many times.

You've been stoned to death many, many times and risen each time?  Maybe Valmy is onto something.

Must have been painful for you, though.  I understand that being stoned to death is one of the worst ways to go, unless you get lucky and take a blow to the head that puts you off right off the bat.

[The Brain]

Is FB around btw?

[Razgovory]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

Berkut is evil by his own definition.  Since he is human and must have done some bad things (tell lies, ignore Raz) in his life and wasn't inspired by religion to do them, he must, in fact, be an evil person rather than just a good person who has done bad things.

[dps]

And I have no hestitation in saying that those who would put you to death because of your religion (or lack thereof) are pretty clearly evil.  Jesus was pretty clear on the "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" bit.  We're supposed to leave the judging up to God.

And that is why I feel pretty safe visiting your lovely family. The details of what God you worship do matter when it comes to actual behavior.

On a more serious note, of course you are right about that.  But that's why BB's definition works for him--from his POV, anyone who follows a god that demands you be stoned to death follows a false god, and therefore is acting contrary to God's wishes, i.e., is evil.

That necessarily makes BB's definition rather subjective.  I'm not sure that an entirely objective definition is possible.  I think my definition would be that to be evil is to know right from wrong and chose to do wrong anyway, especially if to do so causes harm to innocents.  But that still leaves the question of what is right and what is wrong.

[Barrister]

And that is why I feel pretty safe visiting your lovely family. The details of what God you worship do matter when it comes to actual behavior.

But your *definition* could be as easily used by someone who worships a different god to justify taking me down to the local square and stoning me to death. And has been used for just such a purpose many, many times.

This is perhaps the source of our dispute.

When I say 'morality comes from God', you take that to mean that morality is entirely subjective.  It depends on which God, which set of beliefs you choose to believe in.  If you choose to believe in violent jihadi islam, that makes throwing gays off of rooftops moral.

But when I say 'morality comes from God' I mean it that morality is entirely objective.  It comes from God, not from man.  It doesn't matter whether someone believes their actions are moral or not - the only thing that matters is whether God finds they are moral.



And (getting further afield here) I think you are wrong to equate being "good" and being "saved" in Christian thought.  Well, I should make clear I'm talking about the more liberal evangelical Christianity of my church, as I understand it.  The general notion is that "goodness" is separate from being saved - largely because none of us are good enough.  Not one human being alive is good enough, is deserving enough, for everlasting life.  We are all sinners.  Thus it is only through the grace of God that we can be saved.

So not believing in Christ does not make you Evil - at least no more so than any of the rest of us.

[garbon]

But when I say 'morality comes from God' I mean it that morality is entirely objective.  It comes from God, not from man.  It doesn't matter whether someone believes their actions are moral or not - the only thing that matters is whether God finds they are moral.

But how do we know what is objectively moral?

[Barrister]

But when I say 'morality comes from God' I mean it that morality is entirely objective.  It comes from God, not from man.  It doesn't matter whether someone believes their actions are moral or not - the only thing that matters is whether God finds they are moral.

But how do we know what is objectively moral?

Ah, now there's the trick, isn't it? 

We study, we pray, we do our best to figure it out.

[garbon]

But when I say 'morality comes from God' I mean it that morality is entirely objective.  It comes from God, not from man.  It doesn't matter whether someone believes their actions are moral or not - the only thing that matters is whether God finds they are moral.

But how do we know what is objectively moral?

Ah, now there's the trick, isn't it? 

We study, we pray, we do our best to figure it out.

Sure but the problem is that different people will reach different conclusions on what is moral by those methods - much of which could not be objectively moral but they think it is.