The rise of American authoritarianism

[Valmy]

As a ...student... of fascism, I was pretty darn offended by his line that "Fascist movements, too, had no coherent ideology, no clear set of prescriptions for what ailed society." That's demonstrably untrue, if not a logical fallacy.

Fascism, at least the Italian variety, did seem to have a big focus on action and less on a coherent program I seem to recall.

Corporatism was essential to Italian fascism, and that of type economic program is obviously lacking here, in fact we have close to the opposite.  As it was lacking in Nazism after the murders of Gregor Strasser and Ernst Roehm in 1934.

Funny since the Ron Paul-ites insist that Corporatism is what we, in fact, have rather than True Capitalism(tm). But I meant as an ideology.

[Capetan Mihali]

Well, "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor" has been a catch-phrase since at least the 60s to describe the American economic system. 

But corporatism in the fascist sense went well beyond that, and encompassed the mutual efforts of labor and management in production, that the corporation owed a duty to both the worker and the state, and the advancement of integral whole of the nation through work. 

So in that way, nothing like the offshoring of American jobs, the executive Swiss/Bermudan bank accounts, etc.

[Valmy]

But corporatism in the fascist sense went well beyond that, and encompassed the mutual efforts of labor and management in production, that the corporation owed a duty to both the worker and the state, and the advancement of integral whole of the nation through work.

Yes well they had to attract the leftist vote somehow. How did this work in practice?

Well, "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor" has been a catch-phrase since at least the 60s to describe the American economic system.

Yeah but that is a little sketchy. We spend over half of our budget on social programs...but then the Paulites like to argue that subsidizes corporations by enabling them to pay lower wages.

[MadImmortalMan]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

[PJL]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

So really they were National Communists rather than National Socialists then.

[11B4V]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

So really they were National Communists rather than National Socialists then.

Der Fuhrer is not amused you filthy Untermensch

[FunkMonk]

But corporatism in the fascist sense went well beyond that, and encompassed the mutual efforts of labor and management in production, that the corporation owed a duty to both the worker and the state, and the advancement of integral whole of the nation through work.

How did this work in practice?

Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction is a good book on this subject. 

[MadImmortalMan]

Adam Tooze's The Wages of Destruction is a good book on this subject.

Agreed. 

[FunkMonk]

Figured you read it too 

[Razgovory]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

We had that too.  It was called WWII.

[grumbler]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

So really they were National Communists rather than National Socialists then.

No.  The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was not the Union of Soviet Communist Republics.  State control of the economy is a socialist thing.  Communism doesn't even have a state to control anything.

[Capetan Mihali]

Figured you read it too 

I think that must've been on the Languish Book Club since it seems like we've all read it (or at least most of it ).

[viper37]

The cult of ignorance

I had this in my browser, I just can't remember where I got it.  So, sorry in advance if I just got it from this thread

[FunkMonk]

Figured you read it too 

I think that must've been on the Languish Book Club since it seems like we've all read it (or at least most of it ).

It was mentioned in the book thread, I think. Very good read. 

[PJL]

How did this work in practice?

In terms of Germany, they weren't content to simply nationalize industries. They took complete command of entire sectors of the economy at once. Imagine Joe Biden sitting down in a conference room with the CEOs of every auto manufacturer in America and telling each one how much product to produce, how many employees each would be allotted, how much they were to pay them, where their raw materials would come from and how much of them they would be rationed, to whom they would sell their final product and for what price, etc. And then doing it again with mining, energy, railways, etc. I think literally all foreign exchange went through the state.

And that is before the war.

In many ways, they made the Soviets look like amateurs at the whole state control of the economy thing.

So really they were National Communists rather than National Socialists then.

No.  The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was not the Union of Soviet Communist Republics.  State control of the economy is a socialist thing.  Communism doesn't even have a state to control anything.

It wasn't called Nazi Germany either, not officially.