Hillary vs Bernie

[viper37]

The problem with Sanders is not what he says, it's what he's not saying considering the kind of people he admires and respect.

People like Olof Palme and Gro Harlem Brundtland?

People like Castro and Corbyn.  The ones that don't refrain to use violence against opponents.
Sanders is against NAFTA (he voted against most free trade agreements), just like Trump, so that's enough to discredit him in my eyes.

About free trade:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/opinion/what-trump-and-sanders-get-wrong-about-free-trade.html

[garbon]

And he says he isn't a one issue voter...

[lustindarkness]

So, voters should vote for the candidates they want? Or vote against the candidate they dislike?

[Valmy]

So, voters should vote for the candidates they want? Or vote against the candidate they dislike?

Yes.

[Capetan Mihali]

But when you look at the options and decide that not only do you not like either option, but that there is no meaningful difference between them, then going third party is probably the correct choice.  And a strong third party showing can indeed effect the positions parties take in the future.

Of course.  But we were talking about Mihalia, who doesn't seem to be 100% indifferent between the two choices.

This'll get me accused of being drunk, too, and maybe thrown off the boat, but I am pretty close. 

Working- and middle-class Americans stand to gain very little from either candidate.  Who has the more entrenched ruling-class interests, Clinton or Trump?  It's hard to say: Trump's richer, but not by that much, they have the same rich buddies, and while they're both swindlers, Trump might have made his fortune in a slightly more honest way.  (Comparing him with Berlusconi gives Trump too much credit almost to the extent that comparing with Mussolini does.)

As far as the welfare of non-rich non-Americans goes, Clinton already has a terrible track record as Senator and Secretary of State from my perspective (e.g. the Iraq War vote, Syria, Libya).  Could Trump fuck things up worse?  Yes, certainly.  He could also fuck them up better.  Experience is a net negative when you're an experienced hand at fucking things up.

It would be an embarrassment to have Trump as President, but maybe the US is an embarrassment of a nation right now and we need to look in the mirror.

The only thing is Ruth Goddamn Bader Fucking Ginsberg, who's had nearly eight years to bow out gracefully.  But I won't let her hold me hostage.

[lustindarkness]

So, voters should vote for the candidates they want? Or vote against the candidate they dislike?

Yes.

That's what I thought, thank you.

[Capetan Mihali]

And he says he isn't a one issue voter...

US-Israel policy is not my only issue, that should be clear now.

[Martinus]

For the record, I think it is perfectly fine for a Bernie supporter to vote for Trump instead of Clinton (or to stay home) provided he or she does not think Trump is the Hitler Reborn(tm).

That's really my beef with the Trump hate - he is seriously lacking as a candidate despite his appeal but he is not Hitler and painting him as such does disservice to the democratic process (not least because of which, it gives all kinds of idiots, especially on the left, a license to do all kinds of unsavory things - like shutting down a pro-Trump rally - to stop him). I just hope the leftist anti-Trump frenzy does not end up in a political assassination.

[derspiess]

I think if you vote for one of the two main party candidates, you're telling them you're okay with everything they're doing.  Vote third party or stay home-- when they see the third party votes or low turnout, they'll get the message. 

[The Minsky Moment]

The Democratic Party and Al Gore failed to convince a number of people to vote for them instead of Nader.  They lost the election, not the Nader voters.

In a democracy, the people decide and the people are responsible for the consequences.  It was an indisputable fact in 2000 that Nader would not and could not win.  In the context of a non-PR plurality vote Presidential electoral system, those voters were saying that they were entirely indifferent as to the outcome of the election. 

Putting that in the present context, my own view is that someone who claims to be indifferent or sees no difference between HC and Trump must be off their rocker. 

The fact that there are only two shitty choices and you have to choose the less shitty one for your vote to count -- that's every American's fault, not just those of us who'd rather not exercise our democratic prerogative for shittiness at all.

Part of being a grown up in a democracy is making the right choice of between lousy choices.  There can be pretty big differences between 2 evils and failing to get that choice correct can have very serious consequences.

[Capetan Mihali]

I love this "grown up" line of rhetoric.   As if that were not the definition of ad hominem, not that anyone keeps track of what that means in this kiddie pool.

[Martinus]

I love this "grown up" line of rhetoric.   As if that were not the definition of ad hominem, not that anyone keeps track of what that means in this kiddie pool.

Vote for Trump, Mihali. You know you want to. 

[The Minsky Moment]

For the record, I think it is perfectly fine for a Bernie supporter to vote for Trump instead of Clinton (or to stay home) provided he or she does not think Trump is the Hitler Reborn(tm).

That's really my beef with the Trump hate - he is seriously lacking as a candidate despite his appeal but he is not Hitler and painting him as such does disservice to the democratic process (not least because of which, it gives all kinds of idiots, especially on the left, a license to do all kinds of unsavory things - like shutting down a pro-Trump rally - to stop him). I just hope the leftist anti-Trump frenzy does not end up in a political assassination.

That's absurd.
Being not as bad as Hitler is a very low bar.  I would think a Pole of all people would understand that.  It is possible to be far better than Hitler, and yet extremely bad.  It is not only possible it is actually the case right now.   The human brain is capable of comprehending qualitative gradations.  100 degrees is a lot less than 120 degrees.  But it is still way too damn hot.  90 degrees is better.

As for this stuff about shutting down rallies and "poltical assassination" that is pure strawman.  No one is doing any of that.

[The Minsky Moment]

I love this "grown up" line of rhetoric.   As if that were not the definition of ad hominem, not that anyone keeps track of what that means in this kiddie pool.

Re-read the definition of ad hominem.
I'll take this as a non-response.

[DGuller]

I love this "grown up" line of rhetoric.   As if that were not the definition of ad hominem, not that anyone keeps track of what that means in this kiddie pool.

That's not really an ad hominem argument, though.  You'll understand when you're older.