Hillary vs Bernie

[Habbaku]

I think a lot of Bernie supporters are going to be very disillusioned after Tuesday.

[Martinus]

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/planned-parenthood-hillary-clinton-ad-buy-219767

Wow, if I was a donor of Planned Parenthood, I would be outraged. Aren't they constantly complaining they need more funds, yet fund one of two candidates in a primary (where both candidates support them)? 

[garbon]

Darling, when aren't you outraged?

[Martinus]

When I'm having sex... oh my god, wait a minute! 

[celedhring]

I believe Clinton is on record now as opposing the TPP.

Yeah, she U-turned on that during the primaries, I believe.

That's what I don't like about her. Sure, there's being flexible, and there's singing a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.

[garbon]

I believe Clinton is on record now as opposing the TPP.

Yeah, she U-turned on that during the primaries, I believe.

That's what I don't like about her. Sure, there's being flexible, and there's singing a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.

And I could see how that might be a problem if she sang 'a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.' Changing one's positions here and there is something everyone should do, not just politicians. Like how people/Hillary have changed their stance on gay marriage.

[Admiral Yi]

Did she change her mind on gay marriage during the primaries too?

[celedhring]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

But regarding TPP, it's what Yi says - she changed her tune during a Democrat primary. It was pretty transparent she said that to protect herself from attacks from the left, while running against a left-leaning rival that was climbing in the polls.

[Martinus]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

But regarding TPP, it's what Yi says - she changed her tune during a Democrat primary. It was pretty transparent she said that to protect herself from attacks from the left, while running against a left-leaning rival that was climbing in the polls.

Yeah. I am reading it the same way.

[garbon]

Wiki says that Obama was originally in favor of gay marriage but then tacked away from that during his political career. So that's pretty naked following of political expediency.

As far as free trade goes, she's had quite a mish and mash of positions over her career. Strangely enough as the WaPo article notes, Obama was big against NAFTA on campaign trail but now big proponent of TPP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/17/tracking-the-many-hillary-clinton-positions-on-trade/

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/21/401123124/a-timeline-of-hillary-clintons-evolution-on-trade

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-singh-grewal/why-hillary-clinton-is-ri_b_8295420.html

In fact, since leaving her position as Secretary of State, she has been offering frequent, subtle warnings that she would not unconditionally support the TPP. In public speeches and in her memoir Hard Choices, Clinton praised the agreement in principle, but always with some reservations. As delicately as she could, given the decorum demanded of someone who was a former member of the sitting administration, she signaled to the Obama White House that her support for the TPP was contingent on the final deal meeting her requirements for trade in the twenty-first century. Foremost among these requirements are that new trade deals should help American workers and not hurt national security.

It was entirely appropriate for Clinton to withhold judgment on the TPP until the final deal was concluded, and she was under no obligation to endorse any final deal simply because she had once hoped for a good one. Clinton's opposition to the TPP is not a flip-flop but a perfectly reasonable stance. In fact, many more Americans may now follow Clinton in concluding, once they see the final details of the TPP, that while they may not be against trade in general, they are certainly against this deal in particular.

Of course, on a personal note, it probably doesn't help that while I thought (think?) the TPP sounds like a worthwhile endeavor the leak last year on some of the copyright stuff had me wondering.

[garbon]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else?

[celedhring]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else?

I don't have such a list. What I would like from a leader is that he is transparent about his political beliefs, and tries to convince the constituency of the reasons why - in his opinion - those beliefs are good for society. Not espousing the beliefs that he believes will get him elected.

[Martinus]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else?

No I don't think he is saying that at all. 

[garbon]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else?

I don't have such a list. What I would like from a leader is that he is transparent about his political beliefs, and tries to convince the constituency of the reasons why - in his opinion - those beliefs are good for society. Not espousing the beliefs that he believes will get him elected.

So politicians who don't generally become president?

[DGuller]

It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

It could be, but I'm not sure.  Gay marriage is one of those issues where you may start out having a strong opinion grounded in inertia and tradition, but then have it dissolve in a debate and then wonder what all the hubbub was about.