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Hillary vs Bernie

Started by Eddie Teach, January 31, 2016, 05:47:52 AM

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Say you're at the Iowa Democratic caucus- who do you vote for?

Sanders
31 (46.3%)
Clinton
25 (37.3%)
Littlefinger
5 (7.5%)
Sanders, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
2 (3%)
Clinton, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
0 (0%)
Write in for Biden :(
1 (1.5%)
Write in for Trump :wacko:
3 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Habbaku

I think a lot of Bernie supporters are going to be very disillusioned after Tuesday.
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

Martinus

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/planned-parenthood-hillary-clinton-ad-buy-219767

Wow, if I was a donor of Planned Parenthood, I would be outraged. Aren't they constantly complaining they need more funds, yet fund one of two candidates in a primary (where both candidates support them)?  :huh:

garbon

Darling, when aren't you outraged? ;)
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Martinus

When I'm having sex... oh my god, wait a minute!  :hmm:

celedhring

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 27, 2016, 09:23:29 PM
I believe Clinton is on record now as opposing the TPP.

Yeah, she U-turned on that during the primaries, I believe.

That's what I don't like about her. Sure, there's being flexible, and there's singing a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.

garbon

Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 04:35:59 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 27, 2016, 09:23:29 PM
I believe Clinton is on record now as opposing the TPP.

Yeah, she U-turned on that during the primaries, I believe.

That's what I don't like about her. Sure, there's being flexible, and there's singing a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.

And I could see how that might be a problem if she sang 'a different song whenever political expediency calls for it.' Changing one's positions here and there is something everyone should do, not just politicians. Like how people/Hillary have changed their stance on gay marriage.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Admiral Yi

Did she change her mind on gay marriage during the primaries too?

celedhring

#427
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

But regarding TPP, it's what Yi says - she changed her tune during a Democrat primary. It was pretty transparent she said that to protect herself from attacks from the left, while running against a left-leaning rival that was climbing in the polls.

Martinus

Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

But regarding TPP, it's what Yi says - she changed her tune during a Democrat primary. It was pretty transparent she said that to protect herself from attacks from the left, while running against a left-leaning rival that was climbing in the polls.

Yeah. I am reading it the same way.

garbon

Wiki says that Obama was originally in favor of gay marriage but then tacked away from that during his political career. So that's pretty naked following of political expediency.

As far as free trade goes, she's had quite a mish and mash of positions over her career. Strangely enough as the WaPo article notes, Obama was big against NAFTA on campaign trail but now big proponent of TPP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/17/tracking-the-many-hillary-clinton-positions-on-trade/

http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/21/401123124/a-timeline-of-hillary-clintons-evolution-on-trade

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-singh-grewal/why-hillary-clinton-is-ri_b_8295420.html

QuoteIn fact, since leaving her position as Secretary of State, she has been offering frequent, subtle warnings that she would not unconditionally support the TPP. In public speeches and in her memoir Hard Choices, Clinton praised the agreement in principle, but always with some reservations. As delicately as she could, given the decorum demanded of someone who was a former member of the sitting administration, she signaled to the Obama White House that her support for the TPP was contingent on the final deal meeting her requirements for trade in the twenty-first century. Foremost among these requirements are that new trade deals should help American workers and not hurt national security.

It was entirely appropriate for Clinton to withhold judgment on the TPP until the final deal was concluded, and she was under no obligation to endorse any final deal simply because she had once hoped for a good one. Clinton's opposition to the TPP is not a flip-flop but a perfectly reasonable stance. In fact, many more Americans may now follow Clinton in concluding, once they see the final details of the TPP, that while they may not be against trade in general, they are certainly against this deal in particular.

Of course, on a personal note, it probably doesn't help that while I thought (think?) the TPP sounds like a worthwhile endeavor the leak last year on some of the copyright stuff had me wondering. -_-
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else? :hmm:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

celedhring

Quote from: garbon on February 28, 2016, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else? :hmm:

I don't have such a list. What I would like from a leader is that he is transparent about his political beliefs, and tries to convince the constituency of the reasons why - in his opinion - those beliefs are good for society. Not espousing the beliefs that he believes will get him elected.

Martinus

Quote from: garbon on February 28, 2016, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else? :hmm:

No I don't think he is saying that at all.  :huh:

garbon

Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:57:09 AM
Quote from: garbon on February 28, 2016, 05:49:40 AM
Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.

Ah wait, so can you tell me - what are the issues that you are allowed to flip your positions on (or outright dissemble on) and what are ones where you need to be crystal clear?

Support of free trade? Need to be unambiguous in your position.
Support of LGBT rights? Okay to dissemble

What else? :hmm:

I don't have such a list. What I would like from a leader is that he is transparent about his political beliefs, and tries to convince the constituency of the reasons why - in his opinion - those beliefs are good for society. Not espousing the beliefs that he believes will get him elected.

So politicians who don't generally become president? :P
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

DGuller

Quote from: celedhring on February 28, 2016, 05:27:44 AM
It is my belief - and I certainly can't prove it - that both Obama, Hillary, and other politicians were in favor of gay marriage from the start, but it wasn't politically adequate to express such views at the time, so they went with the civil union thingie.
It could be, but I'm not sure.  Gay marriage is one of those issues where you may start out having a strong opinion grounded in inertia and tradition, but then have it dissolve in a debate and then wonder what all the hubbub was about.