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Hillary vs Bernie

Started by Eddie Teach, January 31, 2016, 05:47:52 AM

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Say you're at the Iowa Democratic caucus- who do you vote for?

Sanders
31 (46.3%)
Clinton
25 (37.3%)
Littlefinger
5 (7.5%)
Sanders, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
2 (3%)
Clinton, but only to make it easier for GOP to win
0 (0%)
Write in for Biden :(
1 (1.5%)
Write in for Trump :wacko:
3 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Martinus

Quote from: Razgovory on February 06, 2016, 11:30:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 05, 2016, 03:46:58 PM

Except it would not be the whites paying, it would be everybody. And how do you give a cash payment to 'a people'? 'A people' does not have a bank account. We would have to give it to individuals. And is it supposed to be a symbolic act? Like an admission of guilt? Are we all supposed to be feel better, and that is the purpose...so every black person gets a few bucks as a symbolic gesture? Or is it supposed to be quantified somehow based on a historical study of 'plunder'? Or used to achieve a certain end, like say achieve some sort of bench mark of social progress? And what would that be? Sudden windfalls of cash do not have a great record as a tool of empowerment.

Yeah, we are so far removed from the event it would be difficult.  Do you get money based on how black you are?  If we did genetic testing and found someone was 10% black 40% Indian and 50% white, do they get money?  What about people who are black but never had ancestors who were enslaved in the US.  Or those who had ancestors who were slaves while in the British colony but not in the US?  Do people who's last slave ancestor was liberated in 1865 get more money then those who's last slave ancestor was liberated in 1805?  It's a real mess.

Yeah, with Native Americans it made more sense because they have their own communities and autonomies so the recipient of such reparations is much easier to identify.

Martinus

Quote from: Barrister on February 05, 2016, 03:01:58 PMSanders is divorced, was a single dad who was not married to the boy's mother. 

Ok, you have frequently held out of touch bizarre views on this board, but this must be one of the weirdest.  :huh:

garbon

Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2016, 04:30:42 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on February 06, 2016, 11:30:33 PM
Quote from: Valmy on February 05, 2016, 03:46:58 PM

Except it would not be the whites paying, it would be everybody. And how do you give a cash payment to 'a people'? 'A people' does not have a bank account. We would have to give it to individuals. And is it supposed to be a symbolic act? Like an admission of guilt? Are we all supposed to be feel better, and that is the purpose...so every black person gets a few bucks as a symbolic gesture? Or is it supposed to be quantified somehow based on a historical study of 'plunder'? Or used to achieve a certain end, like say achieve some sort of bench mark of social progress? And what would that be? Sudden windfalls of cash do not have a great record as a tool of empowerment.

Yeah, we are so far removed from the event it would be difficult.  Do you get money based on how black you are?  If we did genetic testing and found someone was 10% black 40% Indian and 50% white, do they get money?  What about people who are black but never had ancestors who were enslaved in the US.  Or those who had ancestors who were slaves while in the British colony but not in the US?  Do people who's last slave ancestor was liberated in 1865 get more money then those who's last slave ancestor was liberated in 1805?  It's a real mess.

Yeah, with Native Americans it made more sense because they have their own communities and autonomies so the recipient of such reparations is much easier to identify.

I don't really think it as clean with Native Americans as you are suggesting - particularly given how many communities were destroyed during the existence of the U.S.

Really in both situations, you have many people who have been shafted because the federal gov't could have done something relevant for the people and their offspring who were directly impacted but for various reasons chose not to do so. Of course shit gets complicated down the line.

Not, mind you, that I think reparations makes sense today but I wouldn't be unsympathetic to the view that the government waited until it is all 'too difficult to untangle'.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: garbon on February 07, 2016, 04:50:19 PM
Really in both situations, you have many people who have been shafted because the federal gov't could have done something relevant for the people and their offspring who were directly impacted but for various reasons chose not to do so.

This interesting phrasing seems to be suggesting that you think a basis of reparations should be sins of omission, as opposed to sins of commission.

garbon

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2016, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 07, 2016, 04:50:19 PM
Really in both situations, you have many people who have been shafted because the federal gov't could have done something relevant for the people and their offspring who were directly impacted but for various reasons chose not to do so.

This interesting phrasing seems to be suggesting that you think a basis of reparations should be sins of omission, as opposed to sins of commission.

Sorry, I don't know what you are suggesting.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: garbon on February 07, 2016, 05:19:04 PM
Sorry, I don't know what you are suggesting.

That you think reparations are due not for bad things that were done, but for nice things that were not done.

garbon

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 07, 2016, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 07, 2016, 05:19:04 PM
Sorry, I don't know what you are suggesting.

That you think reparations are due not for bad things that were done, but for nice things that were not done.

My point is that I think reparations were once due for the bad that was done and the bad allowed to happen. Unfortunately because such didn't take place in a timely fashion, virtually impossible to do with any fairness and generally beneficial impact.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

grumbler

Quote from: garbon on February 07, 2016, 05:27:17 PM
My point is that I think reparations were once due for the bad that was done and the bad allowed to happen. Unfortunately because such didn't take place in a timely fashion, virtually impossible to do with any fairness and generally beneficial impact.

If the standard of culpability is "bad allowed to happen" then virtually everyone alive at the time is culpable.  Which, of course, is what Yi was implying.   So, who owed reparations to whom, and why, in your book?
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Razgovory

Reparations is an interesting idea, (though as I pointed out one with lots of problems), but I think Valmy really hits the nail on the head.  Would it really help race relations in the US?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Ed Anger

Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

Razgovory

Quote from: Ed Anger on February 07, 2016, 09:08:59 PM
I want a check.

Hell, you might get one.  There are millions of white Americans who have a black slave ancestor.  Most probably don't even know it.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Ed Anger

Quote from: Razgovory on February 07, 2016, 09:19:41 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on February 07, 2016, 09:08:59 PM
I want a check.

Hell, you might get one.  There are millions of white Americans who have a black slave ancestor.  Most probably don't even know it.

I'm sure there is a darkie in my family's woodpile somewhere. They fucked anything that moved in ye olde times.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

viper37

Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2016, 04:32:45 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 05, 2016, 03:01:58 PMSanders is divorced, was a single dad who was not married to the boy's mother. 

Ok, you have frequently held out of touch bizarre views on this board, but this must be one of the weirdest.  :huh:
we might have just misunderstood him :)
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

LaCroix

reparations to blacks makes sense in the immediate post-ACW. but #politics and war ravaged nation made that difficult. today, it doesn't make sense. indians are different because they're an established sovereignty within the US. money goes to those sovereigns. blacks have nothing similar -- they're american like any other without any exceptional circumstances. marty's point is pretty spot on

garbon

Quote from: LaCroix on February 08, 2016, 12:36:42 AM
reparations to blacks makes sense in the immediate post-ACW. but #politics and war ravaged nation made that difficult. today, it doesn't make sense. indians are different because they're an established sovereignty within the US. money goes to those sovereigns. blacks have nothing similar -- they're american like any other without any exceptional circumstances. marty's point is pretty spot on

I don't see why this has to be the case. Even today we have tribes that seek federal recognition. I don't see why it would be impossible to gather as a group and say 'we are the descendants of xx' a slave who was documented to have worked for xx years without pay. Please certify our group as qualifying for slave reparations.'

Seems like that would be more sensible than qualifying for affirmative action based on a simple tick box.

Now certainly it wouldn't be easy gathering such a group but seems like it'd be a lawyers wet dream.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.